New Kabuto Gi Bring Back

[Fred Geyer]

Just bought this guy any help on the mei and info 

Has been setting in the living room for 71 years 

 

Fred Geyer

[vajo]

Suji Bashi Kabuto with 62 plates in very nice condition?

[uwe]

First glance on my cellphone:

“Joshu ju Saotome Ietada”.

[Fred Geyer]

Thanks !!! Off to study this guy!

 

Fred 

[IanB]

Fred, According to Dr.Orikasa, research into the Saotome armourers is a bit confused with reports of some being made about 1540 and others saying they started in the early Edo period. Dr. Orikasa is convinced they were started in the early Edo by a samurai retainer of the Lord of Shimotsuma Castle who became a ronin and then learned helmet making before starting himself as Ietada. Altogether there were perhaps another 13 generations, almost all using a name starting IE....

Ian Bottomley

[DaveT]

Copied from Sasama: Shin Katchushi Meikan, just for information.

Ietada (家忠)

Saotome Ietada (早乙女家忠), late Muromachi to mi Edo period, he lived in Fuchû (府中) in Hitachi province.

It seems that there were several generations Iesada active from the late Muromachi to the mid Edo period, although we can see subtle differences in their basically identical interpretations. Ietada helmets can have a suji or akoboshi-kabutobachi, the bowl is generally rather deep and the tehen area can either appear in tenkokuzan fashion or be flat. In the case of 62 plates, we count 62 plates on the outside and 60 plates from the inside as there are 61 hagi no ita. Including the koshimaki-ita tome no byô, there are eight rivets per plate. In the case of a toppai interpretation, there are ten rivets or more. Regarding suji- kabuto, the part where the hagi no ita overlaps is bulbous. On koboshi-kabuto, the hoshi are bullet-shaped and riveted either centrally or somewhat towards the suji. The uppermost row of rivets around the tehen has either an angular elliptical or an egg shape. The same applies to the shape of the base of the helmet bowl. The hibiki no ana are opened at a high position. The tsunomoto is installed centrally on the lower edge of the central front plate and is close to thekoshimaki no ita. The upper end of the haraidate-dai is notched in the form of a saw-tooth. There are two horizontally arranged holes for attaching thetatemono. The lower end of the haraidate-dai is either tongue-shaped or has a central ridge and is ken shaped. In addition, the bottom end can either reach close to the edge of the mabisashi or end noticeable earlier. Both are possible. Another characteristic feature of the Saotome school – regardless of whethersuji or koboshi-kabuto – is the iron rivet with a washer placed on the central front plate on the inside of the bowl close to the tehen no ana, and the two iron rivets on the central rear plate.

 

The „Kokon-kaji-mei-hayamidashi“ quotes Ietada in the Saotomegenealogy as the second generation of the school. The first generation ismentioned as: „Nobuyasu (信康), ancestor, student and later son-in-law of Myôchin Nobuie (明珍信家), was born in the village of Saotome and livedlater in Sôshû Odawara.“ The strategist Saeda Seigyokuken Nobushige (佐枝 碎玉軒尹重, 1654-1742) wrote in the first volume of his work „Renshintan- kikai-sei kugi“ the following: „Helmets by the Saotome school fromShimotsuma (下妻) of Shimotsuke province have their origins in the prosperous times of the Odawara-Hôjô, namely when their ancestor, who was then the arms and armour magistrate [of the Odawara-Hôjô], learnt the proper art of forging from the famous craftsman Myôchin Nobuie (明珍信家) during the latter ́s stay in that area. After the death of [Hôjô] Ujinao (氏直, 1562- 1591), he continued to live secluded in Shimotsuke province where he initiatedthe production of helmets.“ With „ancestor“, Nobushige probably refers to the aforementioned Nobuyasu. Well, this craftsmen is listed in the „Katchû-kô zufu“ and in the „Meikô-zukan“ as „Nobuyasu“ (信安) and „Nobutada“ (信忠) and is a bit mysterious. There are helmets extant with the mei „Nobuyasu“ (信 康) but they do not show Saotome workmanship. So it is likely that the meiwas added later to substantiate a counterfeit genealogy. Accordingly we should not rely on Nobuyasu or Nobutada as the ancestor of the Saotome school and should consider Ietada as the actual founder of the school. (See also Nobuyasu [信康].)

 

However, the name „Saotome“ does not appear in the Hôjô retainer and employee list „Odawara-shû shoryô-yakuchô“ and there is also no mention ofan „arms and armour magistrate“ (bugu-hôkô, 武具奉行). Let us address theentry „After the death of [Hôjô] Ujinao, he continued to live secluded in Shimotsuke province where he initiated the production of helmets.“ The Odawara-Hôjô were overthrown in the 18th year of Tenshô (天正, 1590), that means he must have studied under Nobuie before that time. According to the Myôchin genealogy, Nobuie died in the seventh year of Eiroku (永禄, 1564), so it can be ruled out that the Saotome ancestor learned the „proper art of forging“ from him. Another strong argument that Ietada was the actual ancestor of the school is the fact that it would be quite uncommon for a second generation of a lineage to introduce the custom of using one of his characters for all subsequent craftsmen. Based on that, I assume for the time being that Ietada was the actual founder of the school and that it was him who was a student of Nobuie. On the other hand, his workmanship does not resemble Nobuie but rather Yoshimichi (義通). The entry in the „Sankô-furyaku“ on Ietada is a bit vague and reads: „Armourer who lived in the Nitta fief (新田荘) in the Makabe district (真壁郡) of Hitachi province. It is said that he was a student of the Myôchin Nobuie line but this transmission cannot be verified.“When the Myôchin school gained great popularity in the Edo period through their propaganda, local armourers started friendly relations with the family and shared as a consequence their name, and so some master-student relationships were created which merely existed on paper. It is possible that the Saotome family also tried to create a pedigree which somehow goes back to the famous Myôchin lineage and in this course „invented“ Nobuyasu (or Nobutada) as the first generation to match the artistic period of Nobuie. And with this, the actual first generation Ietada had to be counted as the second generation. The late Yamagami Hachirô (山上八郎) presented in his „Nihon-katchû no shin- kenkyû“ a 52-plate suji-kabuto with the following mei on the central frontplate: „Hachiman Daishin (八幡大神) – Amaterasu Ômikami (天照皇大神) –Kasuga Daishin (春日大神)“. And on the central rear plate the piece is signed: „Eiroku jûninen sangatsu-hi“ (永禄十二年三月日, „on a day of the thirdmonth of Eiroku twelve [1569]“) – Jôshû Shimotsuma-jû Saotome Ietada saku (常州下妻住早乙女 家忠作)“. The signature even mentions that the helmet was a property of a certain Nasa (奈佐). And the „Sankô-furyaku“ writes „thereexists a date of the third year of Tenbun (天文, 1534).“ According to this, we must date Ietada from about Kyôroku (享禄, 1528-1532) to Eiroku (永禄, 1558-1570) and install him as the actual founder and first generation of the Saotome school.

 

But there exists another 52-plate suji-kabuto with a shinodare on each sidewhich is signed „„Genroku jûgo mizunoe-uma nen kugatsu-hi (元禄十五壬午 年九月日, „on a day in the ninth month of Genroku 15 [1702], year of thehorse“) – Jôshû-jû Saotome Ietada (常州住早乙女家忠)“, that means somesuccessors were still active in the mid Edo period. Hinatsu Shigetaka (日夏繁 高) wrote in volume six of his 1723 publication „Honchô Takebayashi-genshi“ that there were „five or six successive generations of Ietada“. Volume eleven of the „Meiryô-kôhan“ (明良洪範), published in the Kyôhô era (享保, 1716-1736), lists the entry: „Regarding the helmet by Lord Ieyasu called sansha (三 社), it is [a work] by the first generation Saotome from Shimotsuma. It is an embossed hoshi-kabuto and bears on the reverse side the inscription of thesansha.“ [Translators note: The term „sansha“, lit „three shrines“, refers to the deitiesworshipped therein which are namely the same deities as mentioned above, Hachiman Daibosatsu, Amaterasu Ômikami and Kasuga Daimyôjin.] Well, there is no such helmet extant from the bequest of Ieyasu but when we count back five or six generations from Genroku, we end up in the aforementioned Kyôroku and Eiroku eras for the founder and first generation.

The workmanship is of very constant high quality. There are also sometsuba with the mei of Saotome Ietada which show a well-forged iron but they are works from Edo-period craftsmen of the name. It is interesting that all signature styles of known Ietada mei share common characteristics and also the interpretation and shape of the works are similar. Therefore it is hard to define a generation when there is no dated signature. But pieces with elaborate sankô no byô or iron shinodare and the like are better dated to the Edo period.

[Fred Geyer]

Dave ...all i can say is WOW!!!

 

 

Thanks !

 

So Ian and Dave's comments which I printed off.... is it worth fixing the inner cloth liner??

I have always really liked armor, know nothing about it I look for you two to point me in the right way here to the piece justice

 

Fred    

[DaveT]

Dave ...all i can say is WOW!!!

 

 

Thanks !

 

So Ian and Dave's comments which I printed off.... is it worth fixing the inner cloth liner??

I have always really liked armor, know nothing about it I look for you two to point me in the right way here to the piece justice

 

Fred    

The shikoro neck guard has to come off to fix the liner, this means removing the byo and you would need to replace the himo for the helmet cord.

I would leave it as is, and you can at least examine the inside.

[Fred Geyer]

Thanks for all the great information and your advise, that is what is great about this site !

 

Fred 

[Luc T]

Sasama’s information is outdated, more recent research places Ietada in the early 17 th century.

Ietada became a ronin after Sekikahara, with the name Chikara.

You can find more information in the Saotomebook, by Orikasa Sensei.

http://www.saotomebook.com

Nice kabuto.

[Luc T]

According the used techniques and style, I would date this Ietada end 17th century.

Cherish it, Ietada must have been the best kabutomaker of the Edo period.

[DaveT]

The Saotome book is useless as a resource as there is more free information listed on forums.

Sorry but when I picked up my first Ietada I rushed for this book, the information was non-existent.

Just the classic one-liner like Tetsu Sabiji 60 ken suji kabuto.

Review: 1/10
Verdict: Save your money

[Justin Grant]

Luc

 

Please help me understand the time gap here.

 

You state he was a Ronin after Seki, so lets say for argument, absent more specific information in the post, and up to an including my ignorance, that this Ronin was between 18-25 in 1600. If this kabuto was made at the end, lets say the last 15 years, he was 103-110. If the last 50, so Mid 17th, he was 68-75 years old. But late usually refers to the last quarter, so 1675, which makes him 93 to 100.

 

Are we talking about the same dude or is this a line of makers with the same name? Your statement that Ietada was the best known maker leads me to think one person, and one super talented centenarian.  Especially significant since the average life expectancy in Edo was about 50 years old.

[DaveT]

You hit the nail right on the head there Justin.
99% of this Saotome smith history is complete BS. 

The names must have been a form of a brand with the succession of generations, a Director of the production belt within the factory (school) of armour making with a whole crew of craftspeople, that's how one smith can be 100yrs old and have made 500 Kabuto.

[Luc T]

Justin, there were approximately 6 generations of Ietada.

[Justin Grant]

Thanks Luc,

 

That makes sense. Like I said, Ignorance plays a large role in my life.

[DaveT]

"Ietada must have been the best kabutomaker of the Edo period"

 

 

[Fred Geyer]

Are there dated items out there to see signature or construction styles to place them into the right generation ?

 

Fred 

[IanB]

Fred,  Rather conflicting information here. From the outset I must acknowledge the research done by Dr. Orikasa of Tokyo who has written extensively on the Saotome and their origins during which he examined some 200 examples. Only a fraction of his findings is published in the book referred to above. Apart from owning a helmet by Saotome Ietada myself, all that follows is the work of Orikasa.

 

There appears to have been 14 generations of helmet makers who began in the early Edo period and who seem to have been been based in Hitachi province - often adding Joshu in their signatures. Most use the character.家  Ie.. as the first character of their name (which inevitably caused the Myochins to claim they were linked to Myochin Nobuie but without any foundation). Ietada is considered as having been the founder of the group and to have been working during the early decades of the Edo period and he may well have been a ronin who studied helmet making as way of surviving. (I regard the idea that there were 6 generations who signed Ietada as nonsense. If that were true, the accepted 2nd generation Iesada would have a brother called after his father, the third generation with a brother named after his grandfather (and possibly one named after his father) and so on. They would have to have bred like rabbits.)

 

So, your helmet is made by Ietada the founder of a line of helmet makers who turned out high quality products for 14 generations and it dates to about the first 30 years or so of the 17th century. Well done

Ian Bottomley

[Luc T]

I discussed this matter many many hours with Orikasa sensei.

I recommend all of you to read his publications.

http://www.saotomebook.com/p/studies-on-arms-and-armour.html

the book is sold out, but maybe it is for sale second hand.

[Brian]

Very educational, thanks all. Lovely kabuto Fred, owning one similar is a goal/dream of mine. Must be awesome to be able to examine and study.

[IanB]

I did read Dr. Orikasa's writings, which is why I acknowledged that he deserves to be recognised for all the effort he put into researching the Saotome.  I would also add that nowhere in his writings, and I have read them carefully, is their any reference to six generations of Ietada's  - only the one. 

 

Ian Bottomley

Member of  NIHON KATCHU BUGU KENKYU HOZON KAI

[Luc T]

Indeed Ian, he speaks about ‘different craftsmen’

All the rest is, to use the wise man’s words, ‘Alice in Wonderland’....

Btw there exist a couple of kabuto, signed (Joshu ju) Saotome Ietada, and dated around 1700.

Still outstanding quality, dispite his very high age :-)

[Luc T]

Very educational, thanks all. Lovely kabuto Fred, owning one similar is a goal/dream of mine. Must be awesome to be able to examine and study.

Brian, owning a Ietada is owning one of the very best kabuto from the edo period. The world around, I see owners melting when they hold their treasure in their hands. His 62 plates are the very best after Gitsu and Takayoshi, but his koboshi are mindblowing. Ian, you know what I am talking about, yours is such a masterpiece.

[Shogun8]

The idea of generations of the same maker (or perhaps makers of the same name is a better phrase) - especially as it pertains to Ietada - is indeed very confusing.

 

Giuseppe Piva has written a very good article on the concept of "Ie":

 

http://www.giuseppepiva.com/en/news/ie-system-different-approach-signatures-Japanese-art

[Brian]

Hmm.....I wonder how that pertains to Nobuie and Kaneie?

[Luc T]

Brian, there is a civil war going on in Japan about the existance of Nobuie. Some say he is a fabrication of the Myochin, others say he did exist.

Who do you mean with Kaneie? Or do you mean Katsuie?

There is no known relation to any other smith.

[Brian]

I mean the tsuba guys..with reference to the "ie" theory above. They have long been thought to be a work shop and not a smith or smiths. Just curious if it ties in.

[Shogun8]

I discussed this matter many many hours with Orikasa sensei.

I recommend all of you to read his publications.

http://www.saotomebook.com/p/studies-on-arms-and-armour.html

the book is sold out, but maybe it is for sale second hand.

There's presently a copy for sale on Yahoo at JPY55,000.

[Luc T]

Brian, you could be very close now...is there more documentation on this?