Tsuba help

[Eric H]

Hi All,

 

Can anyone give me more information on this Tsuba (6.2 cm x 5.6 cm), school, artist ?

 

Thank you in advance

Eric

[Guest reinhard]

What do YOU think/know about this tsuba?

 

reinhard

[docliss]

Dear Eric

 

I think that the point of Reinhard’s message was to encourage you to commit yourself to some judgement as to your tsuba’s provenance, rather than to just let somebody else do all of the work for you. We are all of us — albeit some more than others — on a learning curve. That said, your tsuba is for a shotŠand, judging by the worn, silver areas on the seppa-dai, is constructed of a darkly patinated shibuichi. It depicts a naturalistic image of an oak tree, its trunk, branches and leaves in takabori. There are ivy tendrils and leaves in shibuichi and gold, and a dragonfly in a high relief iroye of copper.

 

The flashiness of the image, and the resection of an upper part of the seppa-dai to accomodate a branch of the tree suggest late Edo work. Both the MitÅ and the Hamano schools are possible sources, but the vulgarity of the work and the rather unsympathetic treatment of the insect are uncharacteristic of good Hamano work. One of the MitÅ schools then, but demonstrating a Hamano influence .... The MitÅ Yegawa school worked largely in the soft-metal alloys, displaying both Nara and Hamano influences, and this is a possible provenance for your tsuba.

 

In order to identify a maker one would need to know of a comparable tsuba with either a mei or a reliable attribution and, sadly, I do not know of one. Therefore, to summarise, it is a C19 wakizashi tsuba, possibly by a competent, but not outstanding, artist of the MitÅ Yegawa school.

 

I, like you, share that learning curve, and it is quite probable that another member, more knowledgeable than I, will disagree with this opinion. But, unlike you, I have at least made a commitment.

 

Regards, John L.

[Brian]

Dr L,

Thanks for a well written and explained reply as always

I do encourage people to have a go at their own items, no matter how novice they are. It shows an attempt at learning, even if sometimes we have no idea. Not a rule though, just a suggestion as pointed out.

I also don't think that a lack of answers is necessarily a lack of people trying to help, but sometimes is an answer in itself. If the item is awkward or modern or not good quality, then often people hesitate to say this for fear that they will seem too judgemental. Not saying this is the case here, but for the future, sometimes no answers are an answer by themselves

In this case, although I don't know the school either, I agree with John's answer of late work..maybe mid to later 19C, from someone who knows the art, but hasn't reached a level that we might see in better works. It is a perfectly adequate and genuine tsuba imho, but not of a higher standard. The work is ok, but the composition and placement seem a bit off. Not easy to express in words. Not a bad tsuba though...it would be interesting to be able to verify the school but not sure this is typical of a particular school, or maybe John is correct in his analysis.

 

Regards,

Brian

[Bungo]

my personal opinion...........

I wouldn't call it " vulgar ".

I think the design on the omete side is quite balanced. The gold vine balance out the tree trunk at diagonal opposing side. The wasp is well done though I wish it has a wee bit more different colored metal, but the detail is there. Also the " soft " vine is a nice contrast to the " harsh/hard " tree.

 

If submit to NTHK shinsa, most likely will come back as Mito kinko or Kyo kinko ( which means they aren't telling you anything you don't already suspect ).

 

I like the tsuba.

 

milt

[Ford Hallam]

I must agree with it being very late but can't see the Mito or Hamano traits John suggests. It might pass as a work of the Yegawa school though, the founder, Toshimasa did actually study in Mito but was more influenced by the Yokoya line.

 

I wonder if this doesn't exhibit some late Umetada, or Otsuki school influence. There is a boldness and sculptural quality here that is also not seen in the Nara school.

regards, Ford

[Guest reinhard]

I think this Tsuba is a Hama-mono made for export and was made beyond traditional criteria. Key pointers are the shape of the seppa-dai, the nakago-ana and the artificial punchmarks. Hints towards a school or a style are probably due to the maker's training-background, but I'm afraid they will lead us nowhere.

 

reinhard

[DSweet]

I have been looking at this post for a few days now hoping that people with a lot more experience then me would comment so i could learn.

 

At first glance this looks to be a well made tsuba, and does look as if it was mounted at one point in time. The work itself is clean, and carving appears to be well done.

With that said. I want to agree with Reinhard and Brian on this. Something strikes me a bit strange when looking at it. The wear around the seppa-dai points to it's odd shape.

The whole peice feels to have an unnaturalness to it. The organic depiction of the tree does fit the theme, but the way the design is forced into the curvature of the circle seems strange to me.

 

Sorry, but i don't know enough to give more then my opinion. Which, in this case, is more of my personal artistic taste.

 

-Donovan

[Eric H]

John L.,

 

First of all, thank you for the detailed reply, it's much appreciated. As you mentioned there is a possibility of Mito or Hamano school. Now, the Tsuba is part of a Ko-Wakizashi-Koshirae and its size is half of what you see on the monitor (Dragonfly !). I like to add some more pics mainly because the Fuchi-Kashira are made by

Kaneyuki who belongs to the Hamano school. The Koshirae is 100% original and dates from the Shinshinto period, this sword comes from the collection of Edmond de Goncourt. In my personal sense it imparts a strong feeling of buddhist spirit. Additionally the last pic shows a very similar Tsuba signed Kiunsai Yasukuni from an auction held in 1988 at Klefisch, Köln. I have no idea who this man is, my resource for fittings are 3 books : Joly's List, Sammlung Georg Oeder, Baur Collection. Many thanks also to everybody who gave his opinion to this topic.

 

Regards

Eric

[Eric H]

Why "buddhist" spirit ?

Eric

[docliss]

Dear Eric

 

Thank you for the additional information re the tsuba — the catalogue illustration is, indeed, of a tsuba almost identical to your own. Haynes lists Kiunsai Yasukuni as H 11166.0 in his Index of Japanese Sword Fittings and Associated Artists. This artist was working in Mito in the mid-1800s and was a student of Nukagawa Yasunori. You note that you have the Bauer catalogue in your possession, and he is listed therein on p. 442, # 670, D1115, text p. 98.

 

Your photographs of the fuchi-gashira are rather dark to see much detail and, if the work of Hamano Kaneyuki (H 02616.0), are indeed to be treasured. The second son of Hamano ShÅzui, he succeeded as the second master of the Hamano school from 1770-1776. Haynes does, however, list a second artist using the same kanji and working in the 1800s.

 

In all, a beautiful set.

 

Regards, John L.

[Eric H]

John L.,

 

Thank you for the tip regarding the Yasukuni in the Baur-Book, unfortunately there is no picture. However, I appreciate very much your judgement about the overall quality of the fittings.

 

Best regards

Eric

[Guest reinhard]

Hi Eric,

 

The Tsuba from the Klefisch sale is a good example to explain my point. Your tsuba is quite well made, but it doesn't really fit the criteria of Hamano-school at the height of its craftsmanship at the end of 18th century to me. Again, the seppa-dai is of unbalanced and casual shape, even compared to the Klefisch example. All in all it looks more like Hamano-style than Hamano-school to me.

Your post is very interesting to me for another reason: Some years ago I came across a Katana for sale in Switzerland with outstanding parts made by Hamano Shozui himself (the blade was of no further interest). The original Tsuba unfortunately was replaced by a poor Namban-style piece by some crooked dealer/ignorant collector. The Kashira in particular looked almost exactly like yours and the remaining original parts(fuchi, menuki, kashira, kurigata, kojiri) aired the same Buddhist attitude. I'm not 100% sure about this, but your Wakizashi-Koshirae could very well be the Sho to this Dai. If you're interested in this trace, please P.M. me. - I'm afraid the original pair of Tsuba is long lost.

 

reinhard

[Eric H]

Reinhard,

 

The montage shows the very close relationship, only, my Tsuba is 7mm smaller in length. Instead of to ride on the Seppa-Dai have a close look to the Nakago-Hitsuana's. In one of your earlier comments you saw this as a significant sign for Tsuba's made for export. Well, fact is that the Nakago-Hitsuana fits perfectly with the sword's Nakago, there was even no need to insert Seki-Gane. This could one lead to think it's custom made for THIS sword. Of course this is pure speculation. In summary can be said all fittings are from the 19th c. The Kozuka is by Akichika.

PS the pics do not show the rich dark brown shibuichi.

 

Eric

[docliss]

Dear Eric

 

This has developed into a fascinating series of posts, and the possibility obviously arises that the tsuba illustrated in the Klefisch catalogue was originally from the katana that Reinhard refers to, and thus a pair to your own. However, the measurements given in this catalogue are an unhelpful ‘H 6,9 cm – D 3,6 mm’, and I wonder if you have any more info regarding these?

 

As an interested enquiry for general consideration, is it feasible that the artist of a daishÅ pair of tsuba might sign that for the daitÅ and not that for the shotÅ?

 

Regards, John L.

[Eric H]

John L.,

 

Regrettably I don't have further information on the Klefisch-Tsuba. But your hypothesis as for the signing Daisho-Tsuba's is interesting and chances are that someone else of the board knows more.

 

Best regards

Eric

[docliss]

Dear Eric

 

Measurement of the image on the Klefisch catalogue suggests that the actual size of that tsuba is 6.9 cm - 5.85 cm; quite small for a katana tsuba, perhaps?

 

John L.

[Guest reinhard]

the Nakago-Hitsuana fits perfectly with the sword's Nakago, there was even no need to insert Seki-Gane. This could one lead to think it's custom made for THIS sword.

Eric

 

This could have been adjusted by filing at any time, provided the nakago is bigger in cross-section than the original nakago-ana. (BTW we haven't seen a blade yet, only tsunagi). Missing seki-gane and artificial punchmarks just for decoration make me sceptical when it comes to Tsuba actually used for mounting.

Anyway, seppa-dai is a crucial factor for judging Tsuba, like it or not. Assymetrical shape (I don't mean the branch on the top right) and decorative punchmarks without use are leading towards Hama-Mono. Regarding to this, the Klefisch example with its undefinable "Yasukuni"-attribution looks closer to the real thing than your Tsuba. Maybe I'll be proven wrong, but I think your actually very nice Koshirae does not have its original Tsuba anymore.

 

Unfortunately there are countless Koshirae in the west altered later by Japanese dealers and western collectors for whatever reasons. This started in Bakumatsu-times and lasts until now. "Old" provenance is no guarantee for genuineness. On the contrary. During late 19th century and early 20th century people were quite careless towards cultural heritage and changed all sorts of Tosogu, replaced Tsuba (very popular and very easy to do) as well as Kozuka and Kogai. It just had to look good and suit the taste of potential buyers. This is sad for many Koshirae represented the unique, individual taste of their owners, but this is the way it went (goes).

 

It is not uncommon for Tosogu of a DaiSho-koshirae to be signed by more than one artist. Sometimes master-students were allowed to sign less important pieces of the Koshirae they worked on.

 

reinhard

[Eric H]

Reinhard,

 

I accept your arguments with reservation. Without loosing me in details, I don't believe that the Tsuba was changed in earlier or later times, it's well adapted to the other parts of the Koshirae and in harmonious accordance. As already mentioned the sword comes from an important collection sold in 1897 in Paris. If someone of the board (French members perhaps) is in possession of the catalogue, the description of Lot 768 would bring it to light. Next are 2 pics. The second one shows a cutout, written by the former owner, a very competent connoisseur of Japanese art, referring to the complete sword. Here is the translation : "a piece of absolute first quality, belonged to the collection of Edmont de Goncourt, see his catalogue No. 768, valued in 1897 at fr. 340.--" However, I appreciate this sword highly also because of the outstanding quality of the blade.

 

Eric

[docliss]

Dear Eric, as a matter of interest, see

 

http://www.antiqbook.com/boox/bos/77648.shtml

 

It's a bit expensive, at $575.00, but .... Regards, John L.

[Ford Hallam]

It seems to me that Reinhard has a very valid point about the tsuba possibly being a replacement. As Eric has stated, the theme of the whole of the metalwork is Buddhist. The tsuba on the other hand has no obvious association...unless I'm missing some obscure parable concerning wasps and vines in trees .

 

In addition, it is clearly a far less well carved tsuba than the one from the Klefisch sale. By comparison it does in fact look all the more like a late, not particularly good, copy. It is also far below the general quality of the rest of the mounts.

 

The fuchi and kashira seem like an intriguing pair too me also...a figure of the Buddha on one and on the fuchi a figure entering a possibly sacred cave, amid clouds and raging waterfalls, which has Shinto go-hei hanging over the entrance. The lotus leaf and flowers that make up the rest of the suite are obviously Buddhist. Perhaps depicting the Buddha making his way into a cave to meditate his way to enlightenment. The gohei, although Shinto, are there to denote the specialness of that place. Of course it might be a Japanese incarnation, or a rakkan.

 

I can't make out the menuki, what do they depict, Eric?

 

regards, Ford

[Guest reinhard]

Eric,

 

I hope you don't get me wrong. I'm not sure about the replacement of the Tsuba, just looking for pros and cons. As I have suspected this koshirae left Japan during Meiji period. It would be interesting to know, who owned it before and who sold it (in Japan). Looking at the famous collections dating from later 19th and early 20th century, we often find them a mirror of western expectations. Alfred Baur f.e. was particularly interested in spectacular design and outstanding craftsmanship without understanding more subtle principles of Japanese art; many others were like him. The Japanese anticipated this new needs quickly and provided the Gaijin with what they wanted. With tons of fittings of various quality and the help of skilled craftsmen they reassembled many koshirae for the foreign market (the better ones with much taste and sense for overall harmony). Imagine yourself a Japanese dealer during Meiji era owning a very good koshirae with a Tsuba by Yamakichibei. A Japanese collector would pay very much for this Tsuba alone whereas to most western collectors it appears to be just a primitive piece of steel. Why not replace it then by something they like?

 

This is just a general notion and not a quality judgement. Maybe I'll stand corrected soon.

 

BTW You made me curious about the blade.

 

Reinhard

[Eric H]

John L., very watchful, thanks for the tip.

 

Ford, Reinhard, Tsuba replacement : the sky's the limit.

 

Now, there is a small book with the memories of a merchant of Paris, PHILIPPE SICHEL, who visited together with a friend Japan from march 1874 till september 1874 with the only aim to buy up Japanese objects of art of all kinds. The 3 pics refer to things we like to collect.

 

"J'aurais pu..."

I COULD HAVE MADE IN THE LONG STREEET OF OSAKA, WHERE FABRICS WERE SOLD, A RICH YIELD OF TSUBA'S, BECAUSE CERTAIN ARMORER'S OFFERED ME FULL BOXES, BUT I LOOKED FOR COMPLETE SWORDS, CONSIDERING THE TSUBA'S TO BE A FRAGMENT, I WASN'T INTERESTED.

 

"Pas un..."

NOBODY, DURING MY STAY, NOR MERCHANT, OFFICER, NOBLE MAN OF HIGH ORIGIN, COULD GIVE ME AN INFORMATION ON A PAINTER, AN ENGRAVER, A FAMOUS LACQUERER, EVEN LESS A CERTAIN ERA NOR A ACCURATE DATE.

 

"Conclusions"

NOW WE ARE IN FRANCE SINCE A MONTH, OVER 450 BOXES ARE HERE IN PARIS, CONTAINING MORE THAN 5000 OBJECTS.

 

Well, this is a thinkable possibility how the sword came to Paris.

 

Eric

[Guest reinhard]

NOBODY, DURING MY STAY, NOR MERCHANT, OFFICER, NOBLE MAN OF HIGH ORIGIN, COULD GIVE ME AN INFORMATION ON A PAINTER, AN ENGRAVER, A FAMOUS LACQUERER, EVEN LESS A CERTAIN ERA NOR A ACCURATE DATE.

 

Eric,

 

It will be forever unknown HOW this gentleman asked his questions, but this quote reminded me of the attitude of certain foreigners attending Japanese dealers on their homeground for the first time; even nowadays. I would therefore suspect: They didn't WANT to give him any informations (or his knowledge of the language was real bad).

 

From what I have seen by now, I still think the Tsuba is not quite good enough for the rest of the Koshirae, which seems to be very good; but this is quite speculative telling from pictures only and not seeing it first hand. Just one more detail: A top class artist would probably have spent more time on the rim of the Tsuba. Working on a design like this, he probably would have inlaid the rim as well and tried to make it look more three-dimensional. Again, this is just a notion.

 

Very interesting thread anyway and thanks for showing.

 

reinhard

[Eric H]

Ford wrote :The tsuba on the other hand has no obvious association...unless I'm missing some obscure parable concerning wasps and vines in trees .

 

The association is the tree : "The great enlightenment : then, sitting under a pipal tree, now known as the Bodhi tree in Bodh Gaya, he vowed never to arise until he had found the Truth".

 

Eric

[Eric H]

Reinhard,

 

On the contrary it's well stated that at least 2 of the 3 gentlemen were able to ask questions.

 

The friend of Philippe Sichel lived in order of a mission since 1867 at the court of the "prince de Satsuma" at Kagoshima, had resided at Yokohama, then Edo, and had sojourned also at Higo, Osaka and Kyoto. Having great interest in Japanese art, buying and shipping to France, knew many people, merchants of the different towns. On the other hand, Philippe Sichel's brother lived since 1867 in Tokyo, knewing the town in-depth. It was a reunion after 7 years. Philippe Sichel writes literally "this provided US THREE the best conditions to plunder Japan".

 

Any doubts relating to the competency of this 2 gentlemen ?

 

This small book is a reprint limited on 200 pieces.

 

Eric

[Guido]

The association is the tree : "The great enlightenment : then, sitting under a pipal tree, now known as the Bodhi tree in Bodh Gaya, he vowed never to arise until he had found the Truth".

Sorry, but I think you're reading something into the Tsuba that isn't there - the ficus religiosa, or so-called pipal tree, looks decidedly different from the one depicted on the Tsuba (see attachment); in any case, it wouldn't explain the prominent rendering of the wasp / bee.

 

Eric, I think you're getting a little defensive over some imagined (as I see it) talking down of the Tsuba and Koshirae in general, when in fact what you really get is a rather thoughtful analysis. Reinhard and Ford made some very valid points, but that doesn't mean the Koshirae is in any way undesirable.

 

The way *I* see it: the fittings are not en suite, or even have a common theme as a whole. This is quite obvious when looking at the Tsuka and Saya fittings, they don't appear to be made by the same hand, or put together with a certain "story line" in mind.

 

Which is perfectly o.k. Although it seems to be the general consensus nowadays that all fittings of a Koshirae have to match, it's only true for a very small percentage of Koshirae; Tachi and Kamishimozashi-DaishÅ-Koshirae are in fact an exception, many - if not most - high class Koshirae, including not a few JÅ«yÅ TÅsÅgu, have fittings selected for their individual merit, not because they matched in theme or material.

 

That's were it gets a little tricky: appreciating pre-Meiji period Japanese taste, and especially distinguishing between Samurai and merchant taste. To give just one example: Kaneie and Nobuie Tsuba never became mainstream taste, partially because they didn't appeal to non-Samurai. There were some Tsuba "made in the style of" much later when merchants tried to mimic nobility taste, but almost all of them fell short of what the originals represented.

 

But back to your Koshirae: it's of good quality, well preserved, and has a fascinating, well documented history. I wouldn't be ashamed to add it to my collection. I hope this doesn't sound condescending, because it isn't meant to be. Enjoy it for what it is, not for what it isn't. If nothing else, it's way above of what we usually look at here.

[Eric H]

Guido,

 

Your arguments as also your exemplary explanations are well accepted. Your expertise and extensive experience is as seen a helpful support. I, for one enjoyed the comments and opinions of the other members, though there are sometimes different views, but I think one can always learn something.

 

Eric

[Guest reinhard]

Philippe Sichel writes literally "this provided US THREE the best conditions to plunder Japan".

 

Any doubts relating to the competency of this 2 gentlemen ?

 

I don't necessarily doubt their competency, or what they held for it (although most westerners overestimated their knowledge of Japan at that time, including the "scholars" writing the expertises for the western market), but this is exactly the presumptous attitude, that didn't get them anywhere; even nowadays it won't, when buying art in Japan.

There are very, very few collections dating from Meiji-time in the west withstanding serious expertise as a whole. Japan was flooded by merchants and other foreigners, when Yokohama was opened for foreign trade in 1859. Many of them believed to "have the best conditions to plunder Japan", but the Japanese didn't care much about Gaijin and their colonialist attitude. Since these strange foreigners didn't know sh... about good quality, they provided them with what they wanted. They never heard of the "grande nation" and just didn't care. There are very few exceptions to this, the Bigelow-collection f.e.; but these guys did something to earn the respect of the locals and never decided to "plunder Japan". The "plunderers" were left with pretty stuff and and more questions than answers. Things haven't changed very much by now BTW.

 

reinhard