Interesting Mino Juyo?

[mywei]

A recent blade on Aoi I found interesting, attributed to Kaneyuki, son of the seldom seen Masamune Juttetsu, Kinju.

 

First thoughts were an attractive jigane, and appears on the whole more defined as Mino and hamon more quiet, as compared to the Soshu/Yamato features of earlier generations Shizu etc.

 

Keen to hear thoughts from more experienced members - works by this smith is surely as rare as his father?

 

https://www.aoijapan.com/katana-mumeikanayuki48th-nbthk-juyo-paper

[Gakusee]

Kinju - more prolific or at least more (high-level) blades left by him. Some of that might be because the son did daisaku work for his father or some of his mumei work was attributed to his father. Either way, the son’s work to me seems rarer.

 

Good jigane on that one and tight konie nioiguchi. It is a pity that what was likely a fairly long Nanbokuchô sword was shortened so much but otherwise you have the trademark hamon and okissaki from the examples I have to hand. Regarding the suriage - at least it has a Tensho suriage which means someone cared for it.

[Surfson]

Michael, please explain what you mean by a Tensho suriage.  That's a new term to me.  Cheers, Bob

[seattle1]

Hello:

Following Tanobe sensei there is a distinct difference between Tensho and Keicho era o-suriage, but the illustrated blade seems to fit the latter rather than the Tensho representation. The difference between the two is that the so called Tensho suriage have a rather kuri jiri shape and those done around Keicho, by far the more common era for o-suriage, are kiri jiri.

Arnold F.

[Gakusee]

The nakago tip is rounded and more carefully reshaped after suriage (Tensho) vs quick-and-dirty horizontal chopping-off (Keicho): https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/markussesko.com/2018/04/25/tensho-suriage-and-keicho-suriage/amp/

[seattle1]

Hello:

The images found in the Aoi reference clearly show the Keicho style of o-suriage. The Sesko images show the Tensho and Keicho shapes as I mentioned above. The critical distinction is the outcome at the jiri termination and not the entire sugata of the shortened blade. This issue was discussed by Tanobe sensei in his Tampa, Florida lecture a few years ago and can also be found in the Japanese journal Me no Me, No. 389, Feb. 2009.

Arnold F.

[leo]

Hi,

I had a Juyo Token Kaneyuki blade which I sold a couple of years ago. It was 70cm and naginata naoshi. Now I know that it was "keicho suriage". See drawing.

 

As far as I heard, Kinju blades are rarer and there exists no signed blade by him.

 

What irritates me is that Aoiart claims Kaneyuki instead of Kinju to be one of the Masamune juttetsu or did i read wrong?

 

Best, Martin

 

[seattle1]

Hello:

Quite right Martin. The inclination for would be sellers to turn on the dream machine for anticipating or seeing something in an object that goes beyond the verifiable is an on going issue, and it can seem to be particularly attractive to a rookie collector and therefore dangerously misleading.

Just when a blade that has the straight kiri-like suriage was initially shortened cannot be inferred from the kiri jiri as it might very well have been done in Tensho times in the Tensho fashion and then shortened again to conform to the increasingly commonly seen uchigatana koshirae, perhaps to make the blade somewhat straighter overall.

Arnold F.

[mywei]

What irritates me is that Aoiart claims Kaneyuki instead of Kinju to be one of the Masamune juttetsu or did i read wrong

Thanks for the reference pics Leo. It's always important to read the Japanese version on Aoi, I'm not sure if it's just a translation error or intentional preying upon the ignorant foreigner

[Gakusee]

Finally a good discussion on an interesting topic.

Arnold, I agree with most of what you are saying.

However, in my discussion with Tanobe sensei, the emphasis of Tensho suriage was more about the attention and care applied when performing suriage as opposed to shape. In the Sesko examples the Tensho example, I think, is kengyo from memory, but Tanobe sensei referred to the attached as also Tensho suriage. So the attached tip has some similarities with the Aoe Mino blade even though even greater aesthetics could perhaps have been evinced in the Kaneyuki suriage.

[Jean]

Years ago, Darcy had a Kinju katana for sale with a typical Enbun O kissaki.

[Gakusee]

This one?

[Jean]

Yes, something like that

[seattle1]

Hello Gakusee:

 This is a discussion of interpretation rather than something with stark distinctions. I believe the illustration that Markus used as a Tensho piece is really over the top, kengyo indeed, a gorgeous shape and wonderful inlay, but I do believe that goes to an extreme of the Tensho model. I base my focus on Tanobe sensei's Tampa talk and the Me no Me article referred to. To my eyes the illustration you provide in your 6:00 PM post is what I would call closer to the Tensho one would usually see, though have seen other elaborated examples just like the one Markus shows.

 In my own collecting experience I have had a number of o-suriage koto blades but only one with a jiri similar to the one you illustrate, though somewhat tighter in the radius, i.e., more curved. It is interesting that it is a Bizen Tsuneie, signed tachi-mei, almost 29" and without hi. It was made circa Shocho-Eikyo (1428-1441), therefore at the end of the practical use of tachi and by Tensho or before it was ready for adaptation to the uchi-gatana mode of carry.

 I do wonder what the reason is for the Keicho model to be kiri; was the workload so great that the slight additional time called for the most efficient cut, or was there some functional reason? By the way is your illustration a gakumei?

 Arnold F.

[Jacques D.]

 

 

As far as I heard, Kinju blades are rarer and there exists no signed blade by him.

 

 

 

 

At least one signed tanto exists (it is recorded in the Mino to taikan)

[Guido]

FWIW: this is the nakago of a Nambokuchō period sword I used to own – pretty much everybody said it’s Keichō-suriage.

[Gakusee]

Hello Gakusee:

 This is a discussion of interpretation rather than something with stark distinctions. I believe the illustration that Markus used as a Tensho piece is really over the top, kengyo indeed, a gorgeous shape and wonderful inlay, but I do believe that goes to an extreme of the Tensho model. I base my focus on Tanobe sensei's Tampa talk and the Me no Me article referred to. To my eyes the illustration you provide in your 6:00 PM post is what I would call closer to the Tensho one would usually see, though have seen other elaborated examples just like the one Markus shows.

 In my own collecting experience I have had a number of o-suriage koto blades but only one with a jiri similar to the one you illustrate, though somewhat tighter in the radius, i.e., more curved. It is interesting that it is a Bizen Tsuneie, signed tachi-mei, almost 29" and without hi. It was made circa Shocho-Eikyo (1428-1441), therefore at the end of the practical use of tachi and by Tensho or before it was ready for adaptation to the uchi-gatana mode of carry.

 I do wonder what the reason is for the Keicho model to be kiri; was the workload so great that the slight additional time called for the most efficient cut, or was there some functional reason? By the way is your illustration a gakumei?

 Arnold F.

Agreed precisely in that it is a matter of interpretation as to the care exercised in the suriage process. The example I attached must have been taken from a sword with gakumei - another testament to the care applied and willingness to preserve in a pleasing manner.

[paulb]

Thank you gentlemen for an interesting topic I hadnt even considered before!. I have attached two images. Taking comments so far I am assuming one might be considered Tensho suriage the other somewhat later. Is that view shared?

 

 

[Guido]

... Me no Me article ...

 

Arnold, would you mind telling me which one? It's not too difficult getting back issues here in Japan, and I'll try to buy one. Also, coincidentally I'm meeting with Mr. Tanobe tomorrow, and will report back if you/the message board have any specific questions you'd like me to ask him.

[leo]

At least one signed tanto exists (it is recorded in the Mino to taikan)

 

Jacques,

thank you for the update on signed Kinju blades. Maybe the author of the article I read was simply wrong or he pointed at signed tachi blades by Kinju.

 

martin

[leo]

FWIW: this is the nakago of a Nambokuchō period sword I used to own – pretty much everybody said it’s Keichō-suriage.

 

Guido, I would lean towards the same opinion, even though its rounded a bit.

 

Grüße,

Martin

[seattle1]

Hello:

 Guido I would say your attachment is Keicho as there just is not enough of a curvature, and I would call Paul's both to be Keicho for the same reason.

 As for the reference it is No. 389 of Me no Me, 2009, February., pp.23-57. It is wonderful for you to be able to talk with Tanobe sensei.

 Arnold F.

[paulb]

Thank you Arnold

[Guido]

As for the reference it is No. 389 of Me no Me, 2009, February., pp.23-57

 

I just found out that I actually have that issue; the focus is on gimei, that's why I didn't make the connection.

 

Anyhow, the reference to suriage is found on page 33:

 

 

Many tachi of the Kamakura and Nambokuchō periods were turned into uchigatana during Tenshō and Keichō, that’s why we call those Tenshō-age and Keichō-age respectively; the former has usually a kuri-jiri, while the latter has a kiri-jiri.

 

(non-professional translation by yours truly  )

[nagamaki - Franco]

Hello,

 

This is the nakago-jiri to an o-suriage Kamakura period naginata-naoshi katana that was refinished.

 

 

 

If I'm understanding this thread correctly, this would be referred to as Tenshō-age, correct?

 

Thank you.

[Jean]

Correct Franco

[seattle1]

Hello All:

 I believe the Me no Me 2009 article was foreshadowed by the Tampa lecture I referred to, it being in 2003, and also being mainly about gimei. If memory serves Tanobe sensei used a white board for illustrations along with a spiral bound booklet of various gimei examples. I seem to recall him drawing contrasting examples of Tensho and Keicho suriage with the emphasis on the jiri itself. A Tensho example doesn't have to be a textbook example of kuri-jiri, just markedly radiused. That was the first time I came to realize that a particular suriage process might give a clue as to age on a o-suriage blade.

 Arnold

[Stephen]

Great thread! Thanks to all who contributed. 

[Guido]

Not much to add. Mr. Tanobe confirmed yesterday that – as a general rule – Tenshō-suriage is kuri-jiri (or even emulating the original nakago), and Keichō-suriage kiri-jiri. However, he made a point of the need to examine the rust and yasurime carefully, since later swords were sometimes shortened in this manner to give the imperssion that they are older than they actually are.

 

My own observation is that both methods are more carefully done, with more attention to giving it a pleasant appearance, than many of the hacksaw-like shortenings we often see.

[mywei]

Thanks to the NMB senpai-tachi for sparking an interesting and educational discussion.