Please Identify The Sword Gunto Ww2

[antiquegallery]

please identify the sword gunto ww2

[lonely panet]

david Flynn will be more then able to help you with this one,

 

reads KANE HIDE

maybe nakata kanehide , RJT star with NAGOYA or SEKI stamps and from memory the stamp below the star is a Kan??

 

please post pics of the blade please, 

[kyushukairu]

The stamp below the star is the 'Gifu' stamp, which displays the first character of Gifu (岐). On the reverse is the date '10th Month (October) 19th year of Showa (1944)' (昭和十九年十月) and above that is the seki stamp (関).

[antiquegallery]

The stamp below the star is the 'Gifu' stamp, which displays the first character of Gifu (岐). On the reverse is the date '10th Month (October) 19th year of Showa (1944)' (昭和十九年十月) and above that is the seki stamp (関).

Thank you. here is a photo of the blade

[antiquegallery]

The stamp below the star is the 'Gifu' stamp, which displays the first character of Gifu (岐). On the reverse is the date '10th Month (October) 19th year of Showa (1944)' (昭和十九年十月) and above that is the seki stamp (関).

Thank you.  

[vajo]

That star stamp looks a little strange on the pictures. I' miss the sharp lines. But it could come from the pictures.

 

For me it doesn't look like the Nakata Kanehide mei. Maybe another Kanehide...

[Bruce Pennington]

I would be interested to hear from David or George Trotter on this one. While the Gifu and Seki stamps look legit, the star stamp is poor. The kanji for date and name look decent, but I've never seen a gendatio made for a gunto with the second hole in the nakago! The blade has the look of a showato, but maybe that's just due to use and out of polish condition?

 

The tsuba and seppa are poor quality for such a gendaito blade. This is an odd-ball to me. I'm puzzled.

[vajo]

There is a Seki Kanehide (Showa-to)

兼英 (Kanehide)

兼松 晃 Kenmatsu Akira (Real name)

 

in this case the star stamp is not legit.

 

I searched through all my books and writings. There is only one RJT Kanehide (Nakata). And the mei is totaly different from this Kanehide.

[Edward S]

To me it’s showato rather than gendiato all the way.

 

My reasoning for this is I think the star stamp is not original to the sword but looks to be a later addition and appears to be stamped over a sho or Gifu stamp. This leads me to the conclusion that it is by the Seki Kanehide and is showato, why someone attempted to ‘up-scale’ the blade is anyone’s guess.

 

Although not a traditionally made blade, It is still a nice find and worthy of preservation.

 

Edward S

[lonely panet]

at first glance I thought the star had been badly stamped, but after a harder look Edward has pointed it that it appears to could have be a showa stamped over. 

 

very interesting now theres some much clearer photos to look at

[David Flynn]

The Star doesn't look right to me either.

[Stephen]

Added star. Years ago JSS/US Ran a bit on star stamp blades. There was a rash of dodgy stamps on ebay. This looks like one.

[vajo]

Added star. Years ago JSS/US Ran a bit on star stamp blades. There was a rash of dodgy stamps on ebay. This looks like one.

Thanks for the info Stephen. It is the first faked star stamp i see.

 

Btw. Artem. Your website looks very nice. 

[Brian]

Fake star stamp over a "sho" stamp? Tricky tricky. Ouch.

[george trotter]

OH, I see my name mentioned...was talking to Bruce a while back should have looked on here first. Maybe I can help....

 

The mei is KIKUHIDE who is Murayama Kikuo who was registered as a Seki swordsmith on 17/ Feb. 1943.

He is not listed anywhere as an RJT so I too think the star is a "post-war" addition.

Since the blade has the "GI" mark for Gifu and has 2 ana, I sort of feel that it has the characteristics of the type of showato that would have been normally mounted in the "cheaper" steel scabbard "Type O / Contingency standard" type mounts, but maybe was put into Type 98 instead. Anyway, IMHO it is an ordinary Seki gunto with a questionable star stamp. just my opinion (based on years of observation and a fair knowledge of the Japanese RJT records).

regards,

[antiquegallery]

Thanks for the nice words about the site. I am doing my best.

Thanks for the info Stephen. It is the first faked star stamp i see.

 

Btw. Artem. Your website looks very nice. 

[antiquegallery]

The sword is no longer in my hands. But there is a video review, it may be someone interesting to look at. https://youtu.be/V5rc6Czplm4

[vajo]

Artem, a little advise from my personal opinion. Never touch a Japanese blade with bare hands, only on the nakago. I know from german military collectors that they use no cloves handling old european swords, because a black patina on the blade is a sign of time. But there is a big difference between the two (sword) worlds   and don't forget oiling it.

[antiquegallery]

thanks for the advice. I every week I lubricate my Japanese swords with oil of carnations. I try not to take swords with my hands. This sword took exceptionally (and immediately wiped with oil)

Artem, a little advise from my personal opinion. Never touch a Japanese blade with bare hands, only on the nakago. I know from german military collectors that they use no cloves handling old european swords, because a black patina on the blade is a sign of time. But there is a big difference between the two (sword) worlds   and don't forget oiling it.

[Kiipu]

Cross-Reference

Bruce Pennington the name is Kikuhide

[Bruce Pennington]

On 11/16/2022 at 2:29 PM, Kiipu said:

Cross-Reference

Bruce Pennington the name is Kikuhide

Thanks Thomas.  What a mess!

 

I have many star-stamped blades with Na, small Seki, Ho, Ko, and numbers; but I don't see an on file with a Gifu.  I agree with the above observation that the star is stamped over something, but I have a hard time seeing it as Showa.  I have no Showa stamped blades in 1944.  I suspect it was a poorly struck Gifu and the properly struck stamp was then added below it.  Then there is a light star, which looks to have been poorly struck, too, with the deep star cut, finally, on top. 

 

I don't know what to think about the star.  I agree with Chris, it's not what we normally see, and I think I even see an extended stroke on the left point, as if it was chiseled in, stroke by stroke.  Yet there is age/grime in the star that matches the black grime in the intact Gifu stamp.  I suppose one idea is that a shop owner, during WWII, faked the star and put the blade in Type 98 mounts to crank up the asking price for the sword!

 

Kikuhide is not on the RJT list, yet we already have a couple other names with good stars that cannot be found on the lists either.

 

I'm filing it under the Gifu + Seki stamped blades on the chart, and won't list it under the star-stamped blades.  A side note: I do have a few RJT qualified smiths' blades with both the Gifu and small Seki stamps, but none of them have an added star.

[pgriffin]

 My boss has this sword. He asked me to find information on it. I.  Went to Japan once and so I guess that makes me the person to come to for all things Japanese. I believe the first image to be arsenal stamps? and the second image to be a date? Can anyone confirm what this says and what type it is? I'm assuming WW2 era 

[pgriffin]

I came across this post trying to research it on the internet and just replied to it. My apologies if that wasn't the proper channels. 

[John C]

2 hours ago, pgriffin said:

He asked me to find information on it

Paul:

Without seeing the sword in hand, this is just conjecture. But the signature does not look like the Showa smith Kanehide. The pic below is his actual signature. There should be a star stamp and either a two seki or two nagoya stamps on the blade as well. Now, he also made non-traditional blades as well so the star stamp may be missing. But in general, I would say this is not a traditional (gendaito) kanehide sword.

John C.

[Kiipu]

Hi Paul, welcome to the forum.

 

Are there any other markings other than what you show?  Kikuhide was a swordsmith located in Seki, Gifu Prefecture, and maybe Mal might know more.

菊秀 = Kikuhide (This is the name of the swordsmith).

昭和十九年五月 = May 1944 (Date the blade was made).

@mecox

[mecox]

Paul & Thomas, yes KIKUHIDE (菊秀), from Gifu, real name Murayama Kikuo (村山菊雄), born September 21 1905 (Meiji38), died April 8  1952 (age 47). Registered as a Seki swordsmith Showa 18 (1943) Feb 17 living at Seki-machi, Yoshida-cho.   

The sword is May, 1944 (any stamps on it?).  He does not appear to have produced much.  But the above reference from Bruce (Nove 2022) appears to show a blade stamped with star and Gifu on late war blade, but he is not in Rikugun Jumei Tosho lists.

[Kiipu]

Hi Mal, we (as in me, myself, and I) think the star stamp in the OP was added at a later date!

[Brian]

7 hours ago, Kiipu said:

Hi Mal, we (as in me, myself, and I) think the star stamp in the OP was added at a later date!

I agree

[BANGBANGSAN]

10 hours ago, Kiipu said:

Hi Mal, we (as in me, myself, and I) think the star stamp in the OP was added at a later date!

I agree

[BANGBANGSAN]

13 hours ago, John C said:

But the signature does not look like the Showa smith Kanehide. The pic below is his actual signature.

John C.

 

John

Paul's sword is made by 菊秀  Kikuhide，not 兼秀 Kanehide.