Okay, Now This Is Getting Scary!

[SAS]

Regarding the (likely false) assertion that the blades were polished in Japan, without shinsa paperwork, they would be seized and destroyed. Truth in all things is to be valued by ethical humans; unfortunately, there are so many unethical ones.

[TheGermanBastard]

And the whole sword thing has been unethical for centuries. Was it ethical we would not deal with all that crap that has been set up to fool people for centuries ... fake signatures, then fake papers etc. pp. ..

 

In the end everybody buys at his expertise. You can find lost treasure on eBay as well as the finest junk not available elsewhere. It requires skill and still involves luck. Sometimes you win, sometimes you loose. You can take your money to the stock market on your own or bring it to the bank / have some else do the work for you ... you can cock your meal yourself or go to a places owned by Bocuse. In the end enjoy, stumble, learn but don't complain

[Bazza]

Anyone have any comment on the book "Misui the Samurai"??  I haven't read it as yet, but it is on my bucket list...

 

BaZZa.

 

https://www.amazon.com/Musuis-Story-Autobiography-Tokugawa-Samurai/dp/0816512566

 

A series of picaresque adventures set against the backdrop of a Japan still closed off from the rest of the world, Musui's Story recounts the escapades of samurai Katsu Kokichi. As it depicts Katsu stealing, brawling, indulging in the pleasure quarters, and getting the better of authorities, it also provides a refreshing perspective on Japanese society, customs, economy, and human relationships.

From childhood, Katsu was given to mischief. He ran away from home, once at thirteen, making his way as a beggar on the great trunk road between Edo and Kyoto, and again at twenty, posing as the emissary of a feudal lord. He eventually married and had children but never obtained official preferment and was forced to supplement a meager stipend by dealing in swords, selling protection to shopkeepers, and generally using his muscle and wits.

Katsu's descriptions of loyalty and kindness, greed and deception, vanity and superstition offer an intimate view of daily life in nineteenth-century Japan unavailable in standard history books. Musui's Story will delight not only students of Japan's past but also general readers who will be entranced by Katsu's candor and boundless zest for life.

[Bugyotsuji]

Comment? Erm... nice find, looks interesting!

[SAS]

"greed and deception" and "candor" are mutually exclusive.....

[TheGermanBastard]

Greed and deception is an universally human trait of character found to be around the world but I must give Japanese people praise that they are politer than others at the same time. I enjoy dealing with Japanese people as I enjoy polite people - but just being polite doesn't mean you are an angel. I can tell about my small daughters ...

[Brian]

Apparently the fears are justified. One person on FB has already bought one of them and submitted to shinsa. No word yet what the shinsa said.
And most scary, even semi advanced collectors there did not pick up it wasn't a Nihonto, with guesses hovering around various eras and smiths. Ray was about the only one that quickly picked up what it was.
But if advanced online guys are fooled, then we are going to see far more of this in the future.
https://www.facebook.com/groups/1542406446018557/permalink/2009236626002201/

[Ray Singer]

That sword was even recommended as a good candidate for shinsa (which is especially amusing, considering that the NMB was cited in that thread as a unreliable source of information with 'plenty of pseudo experts'). I really hope we do not hear that it passed and received an attribution.

[Brian]

Yes, I had a good chuckle at that one.

[Ted Tenold]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Getty_kouros

 

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/04/30/arts/design/french-museum-fakes.html

 

https://wikivisually.com/wiki/Brewster_Chair

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolfgang_Beltracchi

 

 

This is not about the Chinese, or the Japanese, nor is it about any infalibility of any expert either qualified or self-conceived to ride in on a white stallion and safe us from financial doom.  It's about vigilent, devoted, study and an individual's personal ability to sequester emotions born of passion and/or greed.  I once knew a militaria dealer in California who said "Sheep are to be shorn", and he did not have any problem manning the shears with someone needed to be fleeced.  

 

Ray has a point when he posits the thought of the smiths in regard to their efforts.  Thus, it's  important to understand that the motivations for faking things are often not born from avarice.  It's ego.  Though arguably, money does help oil the gears of enthusastic production.  

 

Consider this:  Who is the most well known forgery artist of Japanese swords?  Anyone?   

[TheGermanBastard]

Kajihei or Kiyomaro .. and both were highly skilled.

[Alex A]

These really shouldn't fool anyone serious about the hobby.

 

Just looking over the feedback, he got a good price for this one.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Japanese-Samurai-Sword-Ken-/292446327785?nma=true&si=NppRfiIq2FCLRIIx5pu6AdS1wJY%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

[Ted Tenold]

Another interesting thought;  this is one of my favorite craftsman, ever.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sam_Maloof

 

His rocking chairs are iconic for mastery of design, execution, and in price reaching $30,000 to $50,000.   However, I've not yet heard of, nor seen, any evidence or accounts of his works being faked.  Hmmm.... If you've never seen one *in person*, examined the wood stock choices, the joinery, the color, the finish, then looking at one on line won't help you determine if it's going to be the first fake to be discovered by some dude working in the style of Sam Maloof who is talented at woodworking, but still stands dismally short of the visual tibre of Maloof's finished works.

[ken kata]

Hello , Good Morning Guys..

Ken, P.M. sent.

Ken, if you and the forum would like, I will let you take home one  Blade that I bought about a year ago.

 

You and , maybe "Sensei" can look at the blade, and, tell the Forum what you see, to finally have something that

all here can have a reference to what these Blades "really are"..

[johngdo]

The seller has his location listed as being in the USA.  I'm guessing that these blades actually ship from China should you buy one.  Is there a middle man in the USA providing a "legit" shipping address?

 

Also, the owner of the FB sword commented stating that it's China made.  It seems that the sword did not pass Shinsa.

 

John

[reeder]

Ray was about the only one that quickly picked up what it was.

You mean only after I questioned the source of the sword referencing one of the known sellers of these fakes and the owner mentioning another seller known to sell these fakes? ???? That was kind of the point of referencing that seller... to point out it wasn’t any good. Although it wasn’t the exact seller, it was another seller selling similar fakes.

 

We all make mistakes and miss things from time to time.

[Worfieldlg]

Hello, I hope you don’t mind me commenting on this feed but I would like to add something that I feel is important for all of you as investors In collecting nihonto.

 

I my self am very inexperienced in the vast world of knowledge when it comes to nihonto and could easily be tricked by a high level representation, but I am experienced in antiques and works of art. As you all know reproductions and fakes have been a factor as long as valuable things have been around. It is true that high level fakes can damage a market but can also greatly increase value for genuine items if “proven” to be real. In the current situation of the art world province is key. I’m sure many of you have substantial collections and in the future will be more important as more high level reproductions are produced.

 

What I want to add is just a level of protection for what you all ready have and may acquire, you may already do this but it’s so easily passed as you feel you yourself know what you have. In 30 or 40 years time if you sell or pass on your collection to your children the fact you have a detailed history of what you have and when you acquired it will make every different as to the value and proof of what you have. It’s so easy to go to a fair or if you find a sword randomly and don’t acquire a receipt, that piece of paper or photos from 40 years previous could make all the difference. Treat your collection like an historical archive thinking of it being seen in many years time.

 

I hope you don’t mind me adding this but I feel this is just something to add as it’s how the art world works currently and I’m sure is a huge relevance to all of you with large valuable collections.

 

Luke

[vajo]

You can fake everything. But you can't fake patina. That is what i have learned. Buying paper is a argument but it is not a guarantee to buy a real nihonto. Faking Paper is easy.

[Brian]

Tell Ford you can't fake patina.

[vajo]

You can fake patina of course but you can't fake iron rust in that way that time do.

[Guido]

There‘s virtually nothing that can‘t be faked. Even male orgasms.

[TheGermanBastard]

Virtually

[Ray Singer]

Apparently the sword did pass shinsa. I was going to pull an Elon Musk and offer to eat my hat if one of these Changtian-swords blades were to receive kanteisho from a shinsa team. Glad I didn't.

 

https://arstechnica.com/science/2018/02/elon-musk-i-will-eat-my-hat-if-a-competitors-rocket-flies-before-2023/

[Brian]

Yep..just saw that.
Frankly, I am amazed and a few other emotions.
Seriously....this passed?
Let's await details of the worksheet. I can only imagine the shinsa panel doesn't spend too much time on eBay or forums, and maybe isn't aware of current nasty trends.
Or maybe this seller has the occasional real blade.
But with this nakago and that hi.....I have serious doubts. But who am I to question them

[Ray Singer]

When Aoi listed an obvious fake Chinese koshirae, the reply from the shop was that "usually Chinese productions are not on the market in Japan" so it was not recognized for the fake that it is.

 

PS. I hope this is remembered the next time someone tries to create a firestorm around the subject of a questionable NBTHK kanteisho. Mistakes happen.

[TheGermanBastard]

Let's await details of the worksheet. I can only imagine the shinsa panel doesn't spend too much time on eBay or forums, and maybe isn't aware of current nasty trends.

 

 

The problem is that Shinsa teams do not spend too much time on swords in general.

 

Let us be done to earth. The NTHK-NPO just handled 400 swords within how many hours total? 12 hours a day? Makes 24 hours total or 1440 Minutes = 3.6 Minutes per blade. This lines up with my observation where it has been about 2 to 3 minutes. I have a sword that I have submiited 5 times just for fun ... I got 5 pretty different results.

 

I have no doubt that there are some experts who can tell you at instance on MOST occasions what they are looking at ... on MOST ... but NOT ALL. Some things will require more study and at a typical (none Juyo) Shinsa nobody takes this time. So I am not surprised at the "fake" sword passing ...

 

Take a Shinsa for what it is. Some knowledgeabkle folks looking at something for a couple of minutes.

 

You medical doctor of choice hopefully spends more time on his examination ...

[TheGermanBastard]

 But who am I to question them

 

I think evberybody and everything ought to be questioned and has to stand up to being questioned.

[Pete Klein]

Luis - the Chicago shinsa was held on Thursday, Friday, Saturday and I believe part of Sunday.  You might wish to re-calculate.

[TheGermanBastard]

Okay then I double the calculation and it is 7 Minutes per blade. This is definately a great difference.

 

I am not to put down the NTHK-NPO. (From what I recall the Yoshikawa branch had a smaller time widnwo on teh last US Shisna but it may also collerate with a lesser amount of slots)

 

Infact I like NTHK-NPO better than the NBTHK on some aspects and overall consider it to be more trustworthy in my personal oppinion. However we are all just humans and hence we stumble. Infact letting a blade like the one from the Chinese Masamune slip by just is appropriate in an error calculation.

 

What I just personally do not foster is any clult like blind following of authorites.

[Ken-Hawaii]

I think the point here, Luis, is that if THESE guys can pass a Chinese blade, then the newbies & mid-stream collectors are going to be scratching their heads, too, & buying these fakes. We've reached a dangerous point.