Okay, Now This Is Getting Scary!

[Ken-Hawaii]

Take a good close look at these already-sold blades: https://www.ebay.com/itm/Japanese-Samurai-Sword-Katana-/292530590194& https://www.ebay.com/itm/Japanese-Samurai-Sword-Wakizashi-/292467091362

 

Are they obviously Chinese-made to you? Do you see poor hada or hamon? No, they are both scary good! So good, that I wonder, in fact, if they might have passed shinsa.

 

Both blades were forged in China, & then sent to Japan for polishing. They were sold bare-blade because shirasaya would have made them too expensive.

 

Current technology has pushed the production of "art swords" to an unprecedented level, making purchases from "unknown dealers" dangerous, indeed! So, where do we go from here? My sword mentor & I think that we need to re-evaluate our distinctions from Koto to Shinsakuto, & then to "art swords," & how we appraise the value of Nihonto. Because it's going to happen - a couple of these blades will pass shinsa, & then the seller is going to hold those up as examples of high-quality utsushi (if we're lucky), or lie, & call them older blades, & buyers will flock to them, diluting the value of everything that we own. Value is just perception, of course.

 

Is there anything that we can do?

[PNSSHOGUN]

Kissaki execution usually gives away the Shinogi Zukuri blades, otherwise they are getting unnervingly good.

[Ray Singer]

Did the seller say they were polished in Japan? I would have thought that all the work was done in China (and would seem to be the only way this could be profitable for the seller). FWIW, I do not think either of those swords could have passed shinsa. These blades and others by this same seller have had a strange sugata and hamon. Nakago all have a similar artificial appearance. In agreement though that these pieces come closer than other Chinese fakes we have seen, and are dangerous items that I am sure are regularly deceiving buyers.

[Ken-Hawaii]

Yes, Ray, the seller did pass along that the blades were polished in Japan, but wouldn't say more than that. It made me wonder how a togi would polish a blade like that.

 

I just wonder how these "art swords" will resonate with Nihontophiles who are dying for their very first blades. If that wakizashi had been in shirasaya, even I might have bid on it.

[Bazza]

It would be interesting to know what the successful bidder thought he was buying.  IMHO this is far from an art sword by any definition.  It serves to show more than ever the importance of Shows and seeing many swords in hand and reading selected books before buying one's first sword, advice that is bound to be ignored in droves...

 

BaZZa.

[Ken-Hawaii]

Sure, I know these aren't our normal art swords, but I had to call them something! They're not shinsakuto, at least by my definition, or utsushi, so putting "art swords" in quotes at least gives me a name. Feel free to give me something better. They're too well-done to call them out-&-out fakes, which of course is the whole point of this post.

[PNSSHOGUN]

Interesting alternative to expensive Shinsakuto, Nihonto or high end Chinese swords.

[Ken-Hawaii]

Change "interesting" to "scary," & I agree 100%, John. How will blades like this affect the perceived value of our verifiable Nihonto?

[PNSSHOGUN]

I meant more for martial arts use but I doubt they will affect the value at all. The only market it will hit is the low end Nihonto one full of Gimei, poor condition and tired swords that can't paper anyway. I think you could also do *much* worse in terms of chinese fakes than one of these.

 

I don't think one of these will pass Shinsa anytime soon, fingers crossed.

[Stephen]

https://www.ebay.com/sch/changtian-sword/m.html?item=292539965590&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2562

[Ken-Hawaii]

Yup, that's him. I love the "pre-owned" note.

 

Look at the hada on that wak!

[IJASWORDS]

Lets face it, any thing of value is being copied by the Chinese. The Chinese ROLEX watches for 20 bucks are so externally perfect, you need to examine the movement to sometimes tell if is fake. Real Rolex prices are always rising, and becoming more desirable. So it is inevitable that fakes will continue and probably grow in number, and in fact may kindle an interest in new collectors, who with study, may desire real NIHONTO. 

You could imagine that unknowing buyers of fakes may join forums like this, and be enlightened by experienced members. The others who bought swords to cut water melons for kicks are not the type of person who would care if it was fake, as long as it is sharp.

So in summary, real NIHONTO collectors are involved in forums, clubs, shows and a circle of like minded collectors. So values won't be trashed, demand for REAL NIHONTO will continue, and it is contingent on all of us to call out the fakes and educate all that will seek advice and listen.       

[vajo]

Very talented unknown chinese smith. His blade where discussing twice in this board. I was bidding for fun on his chokuto sword (200 dollar). The blade goes up over the price and was sold. Some days later he offered me the blade for my price. The seller was now in China and not US. I didn't buy. By the way. The nakago patina of all his swords speaks loud, 

 

https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/kNAAAOSwEoxal3aY/s-l1600.jpg

[Brian]

This is indeed scary.
When you see them on eBay, you automatically wonder...and look closer and start looking at usernames and history etc etc, and can make the call.
But what happens when some dealer in South Africa or Australia or the UK buys this and sells to a private guy, and a year or 2 later you are called to his house and have to look at it with no prior history of where it came from or provenance...just this blade sitting in front of you from a private guy?
That is when it is going to be very difficult and unnerving to make an absolute call. Your mind won't automatically think "eBay Chinese seller" and the more these swords are "laundered" down the line from owner to owner, the more difficult and confusing it will be.
Yes, a shinsa or a professional collector will know. But the entry to mid level collector is going to have a hard time.
Knowing your seller is getting more and more important.

[Ken-Hawaii]

Exactly my point! And if they're this good today, how much better will they be in a year? Five years?

 

Will we be willing to buy a blade without origami?

[Guido]

I'm with Ray on these swords. Sending them to Japan would be impossible - or at least illegal. Also, a Japanese polisher (even a lower tier one) would charge at least doble for polishing than what the swords sell for.

[TheGermanBastard]

Not polished in Japan. Wold not be economuc as others have explained. Otherwise you get what you see so always bid accordingly.

[vajo]

If this swordsmith would sign them with his name and date he could earn much more for them. I bet it would be a new line of collecting such swords.

[Jussi Ekholm]

They are fairly nice swords and for the shock of many I for example wouldn't mind having one of those as a cutter, granted I rarely cut stuff anymore and don't spend money on Chinese made cutting instruments. And the price of these ended up getting a lot higher than I would pay for bare Chinese made blade.

 

I agree with Ray that these are most likely polished in China. There have been nice polishes coming out of China for several years, and they are quite cost effective. I don't know the techniques they use etc. But you have to consider that as low as these swords are selling, swordsmith(s)/polisher(s) and retailer are still all making profit on these. The lack of shirasaya is something I have never understood about these and Komonjos offerings? It would be quite easy and economical to get a decent shirasaya made for these, and in my view it would easily increase their value over the cost of making it.

 

I can understand Brians concern about private sellers selling these as genuine swords. It happens sometimes with Komonjo blades, mostly around collectors of modern blades. They have been mostly fitted with full koshirae, so they are quite attractive buys to many who do not know about Komonjo. But for those who have seen Komonjo stuff over the years they are quite easy to spot. It is kinda weird for us who know bit more as buying bare blade from Komonjo and getting it professionally fitted runs already pretty close to affordable real modern Japanese swords in koshirae. Would be just better to buy a martial arts sword made by Japanese smith.

 

Here is a Gassan fake for you: https://www.ebay.com/itm/Japanese-Samurai-Sword-Wakizashi/292539965590 At least they are really trying and putting more effort in these than most companies that produce Chinese made production katana. Heck I may end up liking these guys...

[Surfson]

I agree with Jussi and Chris.  I don't mind these coming on the market, but what I object to is that they are not offered honestly as what they are but rather intentionally made to deceive.  Fake aging on the tang and fake claims that they are samurai swords are disgusting.  Although they are getting skilled at this, they still have a long way to go.  The scary part is that if they get good enough to fake a Nanbokucho yamato or yamashiro blade etc., good enough that the shinsa teams start to get uncertain, then they could completely undermine the collecting market, and in the process destroy their own market.  In my field, which is medical research, there are some excellent Chinese researchers, but their credibility is always questioned since there are way too many fraudsters faking data in China.  The whole country has to change this mentality if it wants to get a reputation as a leading economy.  So back to the swords, I hope that eventually this guy and others that make hand forged blades will try to build honest reputations and sell them as shinsakuto.  If good enough, there is no reason that they couldn't command much higher prices. 

[PNSSHOGUN]

The R&D, time, resources and skill that would be required to fool a Shinsa team of a new sword as a Koto period sword would be ludicrous. Smiths have been trying to recreate the Koto masters work for hundreds of years and still cannot do it. How can you recreate such age, such quality and so many polishes and usage?

 

The only market these will affect is the low end Nihonto/high end Chinese one, which is already heavy with much poorer fakes, recreations and tired swords than these. I think Neil is correct in that people will be educated fast and the more discussions and threads we have identifying such swords the less likely buyers will be swindled.

[vajo]

Of course John. I agree. To age the nakago and saying it is a truely Japanese sword is a crime. For that smith who made this with such talent it is stupid and poor.

He could sell this swords with a nice and well done Koshirae as a newly made sword for a much better price and no one must have a bad feeling.

 

That all reminds me on Wolfgang Beltracchi a well known german art-forger https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolfgang_Beltracchiwho now sells his own pictures for incredible prices after his forger career.

[Bizento]

In years to come may be they will be referenced as Namban Swords!!!!   Remember when all showa-to were frowned upon?!..and now look!!

DaveF

[IJASWORDS]

OK then, what are the chances of eBay forcing the removal of auctions that are clearly fraudulent, ie using descriptions like authentic, samurai, Japanese, tamahagne, when they are blatantly untrue? Surely there is some mechanism to remove these false misleading offers.   

[Katsujinken]

Neither of these swords could pass a legitimate shinsa.

 

The only people this will fool are those foolish and greedy enough to try to buy swords on eBay because they think they’re getting a deal.

 

I’ll say it again: when it comes to nihonto, the only thing you’re buying on eBay is trouble.

 

If you’re not nailing the NBTHK’s kantei every single month (pretty sure that’s applies to all of us), work with a real dealer, buy papered blades, and stop this treasure hunting nonsense. :-)

[TheGermanBastard]

  On 4/28/2018 at 2:19 PM, Katsujinken said:

Neither of these swords could pass a legitimate shinsa.

 

The only people this will fool are those foolish and greedy enough to try to buy swords on eBay because they think they’re getting a deal.

 

I’ll say it again: when it comes to nihonto, the only thing you’re buying on eBay is trouble.

 

If you’re not nailing the NBTHK’s kantei every single month (pretty sure that’s applies to all of us), work with a real dealer, buy papered blades, and stop this treasure hunting nonsense. :-)

 

This post is nonesense.

[Greg F]

A big shame that someone that can make a blade like these has enough discipline to learn how to forge such a blade but not enough honor to be honest about them. I think he has reached his limits personally.

 

Greg

[Ray Singer]

I have more sympathy for the smith than the seller. It may be a struggle for even a very talented swordsmith to make a living in China doing what they love. That is certainly the case for swordsmiths in Japan.

[paulb]

errr Michael

check the results pages of the NBTHK kantei before making assumptions about those who post here.

Having said that I agree with you Ebay is not the place to find treasures or at least rarely and with a lot of luck.

there are far more fakes than genuine works. working with a reputable dealer is a far safer bet

[Lingonberry]

Honestly, the price is kind of a dead giveaway.  Nobody who spends even a few days window shopping for nihonto on credible sites will believe prices that low for something looking that nice and it still be a real nihonto.  Not only that, but anyone with half a brain knows not to buy anything valuable from China on ebay.

 

As for people trying to sell them on later, I suspect these blades look real enough in pictures but not so much in hand.  The fake patina on the nakago, for example...

 

Still, I agree that these don't look bad for modern work and the smith would probably do much better if he were honest and sold them as reproduction/modern swords instead of passing them off as antique nihonto.