Mei Translation Help Please

[Navymate]

Post

 

All,

 

I was so impressed with the generosity of knowledge and the abundance of such with my first post (in which I asked for translation help on a late WW2 production blade) that I have a unique situation that I’m hoping I can get some advice and translation help.

 

The previous sword I mentioned is not mine but that of a friend who has a retail store close to where I live. He knew that I had some interest in Japanese blades so he asked if I would be interested in doing some research. Being my first opportunity to appreciate a Japanese sword (arguably so due to its non-traditional method of manufacture), of course I jumped at it. Clearly, I’m a novice at best but nonetheless it has been fascinating and educational.

 

The friend who has a retail store apparently had someone who brought in 4 swords as trade or as an estate sale. Normally he doesn’t deal with any swords, so he’s asked me to help him. I explained the protocol to him about making a donation in appreciation of the help and knowledge received so if/when he sells them he or I will make sure the donation is made. He knows that my knowledge is limited at best and that the information on the previous HIROMICHI sword came from this generous forum, so thank you again.

 

The first of the 3 remaining blades will be included in this post and the others will be in subsequent posts. It is in WW2 Army mounts. The date seems to have worn off as there are faint traces of what appear to be white paint/lacquer. The mei has been difficult for me to decipher and was hoping for some assistance. I have some possibilities for each kanji with the exception of the first one. The last 2 kanji are somewhat obscured so I’ve tried to show different angles on the pictures. It appears to me that there are 8 kanji present. Please forgive any obvious errors.

 

[1. ???, 2. katsu, 3. Seki, 4. Ju, 5. Gen or Moto (maybe Minamoto), 6. San, Kuni, Mi, Mitsu, etc., 7. Yoshi or Yori (but I think it might be Kuni or Hou in certain light), 8. Saku; Nari or Suke; or a variant of San, etc.)].

 

To save space I will just post pictures of the nakago. If more pictures are needed I will gladly provide them.

 

Thank you

[John A Stuart]

I see Noshu Seki ju Minamoto Mi...... John

[Ray Singer]

Noshu Seki ju Minamoto Saburo Kane something. Maybe Kaneuji.

 

Can you take a clearer photo of the bottom of the mei?

[Navymate]

I’m sorry it took so long to respond back, my 2 year old son is sick and I needed to spend time with him last night. Here are some more pictures of the last symbol.

 

Thank you both, Mr. Stuart and Mr. Singer, for being so generous with your knowledge. I have drooled over many of the items on your website Mr. Singer, incredible collection.

 

I’d be glad to post any and all pictures needed. Thank you again.

 

Mark

[John A Stuart]

I can see the Saburo now, 三郎 Not much else. John

[Ray Singer]

Thanks Mark, and for the kind words. Unfortunately the last two kanji before 'saku' are very difficult to make out.

[Navymate]

Thank you gentlemen, the help is greatly appreciated. Even though this sword isn’t in museum condition the Hamon is “bright” and visible compared to the other 3 swords. The Army mounts are all matching numbers and seem to be in good condition. Overall I think it’s a beautiful sword. The pics aren’t great but here are some pictures. I will post pictures of the other 2 swords later today when I have some more free time. Thank you again for all the help.

 

Mark

[george trotter]

Hi, I think I can help...(sort of).

I once had a sword signed this way. It was NOSHU SEKI JU GENSABURO KANETAKA (Hawley 1981 KAN2382)

but can also be read as KANEUE (Kapp & Yoshihara Mod. Jap. Swords & S/smiths p.212)

and also as KANEKAMI (oshi above in the "Japanese Sword Index" Showa oshigata).

The oshigata shown in the above link is the sword I owned and it is signed the same as yours...unfortunately the oshi is hard to read. The kanji "Minamoto" is in this case read as "Gen".

I don't know anything about him other than to say I THINK (from memory) my blade was a gendaito.

From Jinsoo Kim's list of Seki Swordsmiths he is listed as KANEKAMI (or UE or TAKA), family name KOKETSU Gensaburo. Registered as a Seki swordsmith July 25 1940.

 

That's all I have, sorry.

Hope it helps,

[uwe]

"Gen" instead of "Minamoto" reading....

Thanks George!

[george trotter]

Hi Mark (and Uwe),

I found a reference to him in Homma & Ishii "Nihonto Meikan" p.148 (I'd scan it for you but my scanner is playing up...ah, working again).

Translated it says:

KANETAKA. and his details are as follows (assuming my translating is correct):

Koketsu Gensaburo. Seki shi (city), Takami machi (town).

Seki Token Kabushiki Kaisha Senzoku (Seki Sword Forging Company affiliate/attached to).

He was 41 in 1943.

He was Rikugun Jumei Tosho (RJT).

He is classified as Showa, Gifu, Army smith.

 

Japanese Sword Index (by Jinsoo Kim) lists him under its RJT smiths "known from literature sources" as Koketsu Kanetaka. So, some of his swords must have a "star" stamp on them.

That's about the best I can find.

Regards,

George

[george trotter]

Gosh, I wish I hadn't started this now...found a reference on-line in Markus Sesko's listing.

He says:

KANETAKA, GIFU, Showa.  Student of Watanabe Kanenaga and RJT. But Markus' source says Kanetaka's personal name was HANABUSA GENSABURO. 

 

AGAIN...I checked in the "Nihon Gendaito Shoshi" by Uchiyama Chapter IV pp.7 and 8 (printed in Token Bijutsu Journal #149, June 1969) and this confirms Markus' listing. It says a Hanabusa Gensaburo Kanetaka was the 8th student of Watanabe Kanenaga of Gifu.

 

The problem here is that HANABUSA and KOKETSU are different kanji. One set of reputable books says KOKETSU and another pair of reputable books says HANABUSA.

Only one is correct? or are there two Kanetaka smiths?

 

I'm afraid it's over to you guys now....

Regards,

[Navymate]

Wow! Thank you Mr. Trotter very much for the information and scans you have provided, that is very kind of you. I didn’t mean for you to fall down into a rabbit hole, but in doing so I have some fantastic information and a great place to continue researching. It is truly amazing the scope of knowledge everyone has been so generous to share, thank you.

 

Mark

[SteveM]

The problem comes from the unique family name 纐纈 (various readings). 

It can be read both as Kōketsu, and it can also be read as Hanabusa.

 

https://myoji-yurai.net/searchResult.htm?myojiKanji=%E7%BA%90%E7%BA%88

 

It is a name that apparently exists (both readings) in Gifu prefecture (aka the former Mino, or Nōshū). 

 

Just by looking at the kanji, you wouldn't know which pronunciation is correct. You would have to know the family and know their customary pronunciation. Add to this the slightly confusing art name of 兼上 (Kanetaka) which normally wouldn't be read as -taka, but would most likely be -kami, or perhaps -ue. So both family name and personal name are somewhat tricky, and just by looking at the text one is very likely to misread one or both. 

 

The source listed on George's post #10 actually goes one step further sideways by misprinting the name as 交告 (presumably the printer didn't have the proper typefaces for the unusual kanji of 纐纈, so they made due by just using the middle part of each kanji - therefore it ended up in print as 交告, and from these kanji it is almost impossible to imagine the reading of Hanabusa. So if later researchers use only that source, they are likely to conclude that Kōketsu is the correct reading.  

[george trotter]

Thanks for your kind words Mark...good luck researching.

Steve, I too looked at the kanji and wondered if the source I posted used some post WWII "modernisation" of the kanji and thence the confusion now....but since then I checked O'Neill "Japanese Names" and it lists, firstly, Hanabusu with the "hanabusa" set of kanji (but does not give the Koketsu reading) then, secondly, it lists Koketsu with the "koketsu" set of kanji (and also gives the Hanabusa kanji as reading Koketsu).

To break this down to simple English it means that Hanabusa has one set of kanji (as shown in Sesko) and Koketsu has two sets of kanji. The first writing is as shown in the above page I attached and the second writing is the same kanji as Hanabusa.  This is shown in O'Neill as Koketsu (Koketsu kanji) followed by being also shown in the Hanabusa kanji (these second kanji are followed by the indicator "sa" meaning "surname, alternative"). So Hanabusa kanji can be read as Hanabusa and Koketsu, but Koketsu kanji can only be read as Koketsu....hope this is clear.

 

So, I think we have solved the Hanabusa/Koketsu mystery, all we have to do now is make sure we know for sure whether the smith's name is actually read as Koketsu Gensaburo Kanetaka or Hanabusa Gensaburo Kanetaka. I leave that to those better up to date with modern Japanese sword world to decide.

What I can say to you Mark is that you appear to have a gendaito by a prominent WWII RJT smith who was 8th student of the modern Seki Gendaito pioneer Watanabe Kanenaga. You will be pleased to know that he probably studied alongside fellow student Nakata Kanehide of Seki, one of whose swords (star) I am honoured to own.

Regards,

[Navymate]

The problem comes from the unique family name 纐纈 (various readings).

It can be read both as Kōketsu, and it can also be read as Hanabusa.

 

https://myoji-yurai.net/searchResult.htm?myojiKanji=%E7%BA%90%E7%BA%88

 

It is a name that apparently exists (both readings) in Gifu prefecture (aka the former Mino, or Nōshū).

 

Just by looking at the kanji, you wouldn't know which pronunciation is correct. You would have to know the family and know their customary pronunciation. Add to this the slightly confusing art name of 兼上 (Kanetaka) which normally wouldn't be read as -taka, but would most likely be -kami, or perhaps -ue. So both family name and personal name are somewhat tricky, and just by looking at the text one is very likely to misread one or both.

 

The source listed on George's post #10 actually goes one step further sideways by misprinting the name as 交告 (presumably the printer didn't have the proper typefaces for the unusual kanji of 纐纈, so they made due by just using the middle part of each kanji - therefore it ended up in print as 交告, and from these kanji it is almost impossible to imagine the reading of Hanabusa. So if later researchers use only that source, they are likely to conclude that Kōketsu is the correct reading.

This is fantastic — thank you SteveM! I can absolutely see your point about misreading one or both kanji of his family and personal name. I had been looking at this mei for over 2 weeks and getting no where so I am incredibly thankful for you taking the time to explain this somewhat tricky situation in such detail. Your explanation is detailed and very informative.

 

Thank you,

Mark

[Navymate]

Thank you again Mr. Trotter for taking the time to break it down into that much detail. Your explanation and knowledge has really helped me grasp a better understanding. Even a novice as myself realizes what a treasure you have in your Nakata Kanehide sword! Truly amazing and thank you for sharing that with me.

 

Mark