Real Or Fake

[johnnyi]

This is kind of a toughy, because you won't have much to go on except the mechanics of the tsuba. Patina seems to have been subjected to either corrosion and possible cleaning (or something more nefarious) at some point and can't be accurately judged properly.  There are features though which might lock this down as real or fake, but I need the help of a real expert (hello Ford) or experts to know. If it's fake it is fake and if it is real it old old.  Thanks for your help on this one. 

 

Tsuba measures:

85.8 mm tall

85.5 mm wide

2. -2.2 mm 1/8 to 1/4 inch from edge

2.4 mm- 2.6 mm area within the tomo and including seppa dai

 

The edge is slightly rounded, and the sukashi walls are fairly sharp, (they are a puzzle, as you sometimes see this sharp knife edge on edges of corroded iron where the interior of the plate has wasted away a bit more than the surface-maybe this is due to a preserving effect of patina?))

 

The pictures I hope are helpful, but they probably won't be useful unless blown up to "screen background" where the detail is visible.

 

This may very well be a fake. But why would so much effort be put into forging the iron to the point of tapering the thickness?

Why would the delamination appear where it has (mostly at nakago ana, and one other tiny spot) on a new product?

Has anyone else found a fake that has these properties?

[rkg]

Looks like the real deal to me (its unlikely a faker-er, utushi artisan would use a folded plate, etc), though as you point out maybe its been er, helped" in the past...

rkg

(Richard George)

[ROKUJURO]

  On 4/22/2018 at 7:46 PM, johnnyi said:

......This may very well be a fake. But why would so much effort be put into forging the iron to the point of tapering the thickness?

Why would the delamination appear where it has (mostly at nakago ana, and one other tiny spot) on a new product?

Johnnyi,

 

my feeling is that this is a good authentic KATCHUSHI (or TOSHO) TSUBA. BUT if someone really wanted to produce an UTSUSHI, forging of tapering thickness or a laminated plate is no problem at all. I think that we see fakes mainly when they are easy to make and can be sold cheaply, or when 'better' fakes might promise a lot of money. Then it might be worthwhile to invest some real work.

[johnnyi]

Ah Jean ,that is what  I want to know; who has actually seen such a fake (with folding, etc.) rather than just speculate that they may be there? Is folding iron so as to produce NO separation on the rim BUT separation on the walls of a Nakago ana an easy task?  Why would such effort be put into a tsuba that would probably never rise to the level of being worth it?

 

I ask all this because someone told me it was fake, but I couldn't get a convincing reason other than cheap steel.

 

Regards,  Johni    p.s. hello Richard  

[TheGermanBastard]

Looks good to me

[Curran]

The tsuba can't tell you its story.

 

My initial opinion is that the tsuba looks legit to me. From the lighting, I cannot say if it is natural ageing or if it has been a bit in a fire. Unfortunately, there were older books and texts that actually recommended improving patina by letting tsuba rest in a fire for a bit. Then we've seen depiction where shinobi and others actually stood on the tsuba as some sort of stilt to get over walls. It may be ridiculous sounding, so don't go too far from the simpler answers.

 

I cannot casually recall having seen a 'fake' with true folding there. I have seen some very well modern efforts with the folding. Most of them cost more than the price of an Edo example.

[seattle1]

Hello:

 Many factors flow into the question and it is just conjecture to sort them out. From the over all round shape it would appear to be what is usually called katchushi, however they would usually have a raised rim, and if removed by width reduction they would not usually show a rounded rim, though it appears rounded. The design is old, sort of mediating between what a tosho artist would do, or a katchushi for that matter. The final product lends itself to being called ko, initially with two tomoe and no accommodation for a kozuka, yet it seems to have been accommodated for one after initial manufacture. Is that meant to add the appearance of age? I don't think johnnyi's question poses "ko", but of course if "ko" the value would be a multiple over late Edo and many late Edo utsushi, obvious or pretending to be old, do exist. What bothers me, for which there are perhaps clears answers, is the roughness of the vertical spaces within the sukashi elements or so they seem from the photos. Why would that naturally be so, either old or late Edo, rather than something  even newer?That being said, it beats me. It is the sort of thing that needs to be studied in hand, and rung for that matter, along with an assessment of the patina in sun light.

 Arnold F.

[vajo]

It is a forged tsuba no cast. But i doubt on the color and surface maybe that comes from the pictures i don't know.

Good luck with it.

[ROKUJURO]

  On 4/22/2018 at 10:08 PM, johnnyi said:

.....Is folding iron so as to produce NO separation on the rim BUT separation on the walls of a Nakago ana an easy task?  Why would such effort be put into a tsuba that would probably never rise to the level of being worth it?....

Johni,

 

you can fold and fire-weld iron and steel in a way that the dividing lines are almost invisible, depending on the skill and the intention of the smith. Remember AKASAKA TSUBA with their SAN-MAI construction of the plate.

 

In your case it seems that this work was done a bit sloppily, and this may raise questions whether it is old or a later work wanting to look old. The 'old' TOSHO and KATCHU smiths were quite able to do very good work, but sometimes a tiny gap in a welding is broken up and widened by corrosion, making even a newer TSUBA look old. It is not unusual to see such KIZU in 'old' TOSHO and KATCHUSHI TSUBA, but there are also many perfect items to be admired in collections and museums.

 

So it really applies what Arnold wrote: Inspecting the TSUBA in-hand (or having a SHINSA team do this) is necessary to come to a better assessment than might be possible just by photos. 

 

In any case, I like the TSUBA, the dimensions and the execution, but that does not mean much!

[johnnyi]

Gentlemen, thanks for your input. I think it is going to come down to what can cause this specific state of the sukashii walls, (acids, salts, etc.) and it will probably take a metallurgist to answer this. I'm skeptical about this piece, but too early to write it off I guess.  Thanks again

 

Johni

[SalaMarcos]

I think is real, but not very old. I saw many tsuba like this mounted in XIX century swords with a shônai Satsuma koshirae.