What are these?

[James]

Recently, I purchased a wakizashi in toppei koshirae and there are some strange markings on the saya.

I have no clue as to what they may be. Any ideas?

 

[Nobody]

Interesting motif if they are genuine, though I do not know what they are.

I believe that Joan Miro was not born yet at that time. :lol:

[remzy]

If you ask me, id tell you that it look like an artistic attempt to hide chips in the lacquer job that was done at a later date, but i might be completly wrong on that one... interesting still.

[drbvac]

Look like Inuit or Eskimo / land bridge to North America is proven - ? No idea.

[Thierry BERNARD]

perhaps Ainu symbols!!

[Guest reinhard]

Looks like modern "tribal" art to me. I'm sure your local tattoo artist will appreciate them.

 

reinhard

[Guest nickn]

are they inletted into the laquer or on top?

[James]

are they inletted into the laquer or on top?

 

Seems to be inletted into the surface lacquer so perhaps Remzy is correct.

It still doesn't explain what they are exactly though. They almost look like little monsters don't they?

[Ford Hallam]

These look like archaic ( about 4000 years old ) Chinese ideo, or pictograms, the sort of thing that preceded the development of what we now call; Kanji.

 

I can't read the stuff though :lol:

[Guest nickn]

i think you are right ford

i have a chinese plaque given to a military school cadet that has a mark ,and others but not like the ones on the saya , very similair to the bell shaped one on the saya my local chinese take away owner said it was the name seal of the teacher who awarded the plaque

[Stephen]

a stencil was place on the black coat of lacquer then the over coat of the top layer of lacquer with crushed shell was applied then stencil was removed. as far as the meaning....don't know.

[James]

These look like archaic ( about 4000 years old ) Chinese ideo, or pictograms, the sort of thing that preceded the development of what we now call; Kanji.

 

I can't read the stuff though :lol:

 

Now that you mention the Chinese, it reminds me of the Naxi script:

http://www.omniglot.com/writing/naxi.htm

http://www.ancientscripts.com/naxi.html

http://www2.db.dk/pe/images/Naxi/S_17%20%D8.jpg

[Ford Hallam]

Still not sure what these mean but I stumbled on this Kozuka in the Baur collection ( D1667 ). It's by Otsuki Hideoki.

 

 

 

the fact that they appear to the same, and in the same order might mean that they have some significance...hmm

 

regards, Ford

[James]

That kozuka does indeed show the same design as that on the saya.

Still no idea as to what it means but at least we are going in the right direction.

[Bungo]

these could be those archaic figural inscriptions found on bones and turtle shells.............

 

just my opinions.

The last " figure " ( far right of kozuka ) looks like the kanji " rain " ( as in Tou of the famous kinko )

 

 

milt

[Ford Hallam]

The last " figure " ( far right of kozuka ) looks like the kanji " rain " ( as in Tou of the famous kinko )

you mean Tsuchiya Yasuchika I.

 

it does look like the kanji for rain. I think the 3rd one looks like a shell...anyone know of a kanji that derives from a shell?

[Brian]

Ford,

 

That is a brilliant find! I have no idea how you searched for those symbols and found that kozuka. To me that is conclusive proof that the markings are original and Japanese. I think this will make an excellent research project for the owner. Perhaps the samurai archives forum could assist?

 

Brian

[Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini]

Perhaps the samurai archives forum could assist?

 

If the original poster wantn't register there I or John can post the matter.

Let us know.

[Ford Hallam]

I have no idea how you searched for those symbols and found that kozuka.

 

near photographic memory ...I wish, it was just luck. I was looking for something else and it caught my eye

[James]

Perhaps the samurai archives forum could assist?

 

If the original poster wantn't register there I or John can post the matter.

Let us know.

 

If you could do that for me Carlo, I'd be thankful to you.

[Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini]

Let me return home from work and it'll be done.

[Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini]

John, if your time zone is more favourable, you can oviously post them more quickly then me.

[John A Stuart]

OK, It has been posted in the Japanese Language sub-forum on Samurai Archives. Hope we get a response it is interesting for sure. John

[Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini]

Great, John.

The matter is really interesting.

Hope it'll sort out an enrichment for both fora.

 

Edit to add the links (hope isn't a problem for Bian) :

 

http://forums.samurai-archives.com/viewtopic.php?t=3205

 

http://forums.samurai-archives.com/viewtopic.php?t=3206

[Brian]

Why would it be a problem?

I like other forums a lot too, and you know our own forum has waaay less rules than others, so the more info that leads from this, the better for everyone. Anything that helps is fine with me.

 

Brian

[John A Stuart]

Hi All, I have been going at it to find a solution to this script and think I might have found it. In the 1930's there was a Nationalistic fervor in Japan where foreign influences were being thought of as impure and ancient practices and language forms were being researched. Germany at the same time was trying to eliminate foreign words from their vocabulary and were inventing words that had only Germanic roots to replace them. This is standard when ideology is trying to preserve ancient roots to create solidarity and purpose. At this time Kamiyo moji or Jindai moji which are supposed to be old Shinto scripts of the priests were revived. One of these scripts versions was called Ahira moji which has roots of, and is derivative of, Hangul, an old Korean script. Further there was an hypothetical script formulated that was considered to be the source of Jindai moji and Hangul called Garimto. Again now there is a resurgence in tracking these old scripts especially within the Reiki movement. I think this may be the source of the script on the koshirae and the kozuka. I checked the oracle bone script for rain and, although similar, is not the source.

 

"Jindai moji (Japanese: 神代文字 “script of the age of the gods”), also read as kamiyo moji, are characters (moji) comprising a fictional writing system promoted by Japanese nationalists in the 1930s as a native Japanese script predating Japan's exposure to Chinese writing. They are now generally acknowledged as a historical hoax, but are still found in various Shinto shrines, including the Ise Shrine, and used in some Shinto ceremonies and amulets.

Jindai moji were taught during the height of Japanese nationalism before World War II and mentioned in Japanese scholarly books. Today, they are acknowledged as recent fabrications, although some nationalists and Shintoists still argue for their authenticity." John

Oracle Bone Script.doc

[Ford Hallam]

Hi John,

 

I think you may be on to something here...although the kozuka is way earlier than the time you are referring to.

[John A Stuart]

That was what I was wondering about, the kozuka's age. The koshirae could fit the profile, but.... I have edited the post above where these moji scripts are discredited as fictional, but I will not give up. John

[Bungo]

Baur catalog described the script as archaic Chinese.

May be stylised Oracle bone scripts ?

 

milt

[Guest reinhard]

 

Alfred Baur collected sword-fittings from 1906 until ca.1949 (!). Many of his deals were made in collaboration and with the advice by Mr.Tomita. Some objects of the Baur-collection (which includes outstanding examples) are still awaiting definite proof of their genuineness and some will fail this test (I have seen part of the collection). This design of archaic symbols is so rare and unprecedented it just doesn't work with principles and aesthetics of traditional Samurai-art.

I'm leaning towards John's hypothesis. These ideograms date from a nationalistic movement from the early 20th century.

 

reinhard