Is This Blade ''treatable'' ?

[francantolin]

I bought this old blade ( In really, really bad conditions !!! What have they done before...)

 

Do you think a specialist  can save it and polish/sharp it again ?

If yes, do you think this blade ''deserve'' the price of such a titanic work ?...

 

What do you think of the habaki decoration  ?

 

Kind regards

[Ray Singer]

The damage is substantial, but I believe you will want a professionally trained togishi (polisher) to make that assessment after an in-person inspection.

[TheGermanBastard]

hello Franco, I just replied to you in your other topic. Maybe you could reply here. Again it would take larger better images. You have one critical sport near the Tip ...and also in the mid of the blade there could be some bad pitting. I have not checke on how highly the smith is rated. You woudl want to check on finding a reference piece for him being for sale elsewhere. Without checking on him I would want to think that a polished example of him is worth probably around 3000 USD ... so it is tough call. In my oppinion you would likely not want to ship it to Japan but use one of the excellent polishers that there are in Europe and also Shirasaya makers. This could bring the restoration cost down to around 1000 Euro making it a reasonable project.

 

The Habaki is a solid one piece Habaki made of copper with falling raing pattern. Solid piece but nothing special either.

[nagamaki - Franco]

Hello Franco,

 

Although I agree with Ray's thoughts, from what I'm seeing there looks to be heat damage especially on a section of the sword towards the habaki, if so, it's done. Also, when a sword has chips combined with rust much will depend on the height of the hamon versus depth and location of the damage in regards to being saved. A chip/damage 3 mm or less is usually ok, more becomes iffy.

[francantolin]

Thank you for your precious comments, especially Luis,

 

no, sadly, the spot on the edge of the blade is not discoloration but  a spot-hole   !!!   2,5 mm large...

I'll post closer pictures of the blade especially this area.

 

Kind regards

 

[TheGermanBastard]

Hello Franco 2nd,

 

I am not with Franco 1st on the heat damage. There could be heat damage of course - I can neither rule this out like I can not rule out the existence of god ... still I it seems unlikely to me. Atleast I can not see anything identicating heat damage. If there was heat damage we would be looking at a much worse looking Nakago in my oppinion. But I am only make an assumption.

 

However the spot hole is rather bad so I am unfortunately doubtfull about whetere it sould get polished and would tend to say no.

[Ray Singer]

A polisher may sometimes decide to leave some rust damage or hakobore in place so as not to compromise the shape too much. That may be the only option for that deep chip and large void in the blade. It is not a pleasant option to have a sword repolished and not have it repaired perfectly, and it may not make financial sense to do so, but that would likely be the best thing for the sword.

 

While this is comparing Apples to Kumquats (the sword was a rare and highly important piece), here is an example of damage that was not restorable and was by necessity left in place during the restoration process.

 

https://web.archive.org/web/20161022174112/http://www.nihonto.com:80/7.8.14.html

 

http://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/18679-could-you/?hl=hakobore&do=findComment&comment=192482

[nagamaki - Franco]

Greetings,

 

Lifeless colored steel, that grey like what I'm seeing in these images, is almost always not good news. Exposure to high heat alone can ruin a sword, it doesn't necessarily have to be scorched, it can even occur and only be evident on one side and not the other. Even the type of rust, dry, scaly, can be an indication of heat exposure. Hope I'm wrong.

 

Also, when a good signed sword by a well regarded sword smith is happened upon, it is highly advisable not to cut corners where polishing is concerned. Especially on a sword that requires foundation work, "penny wise, pound foolish."

Edited April 13, 2018 by nagamaki - Franco

[Grey Doffin]

Since the hole doesn't appear to be all the way through the blade there is a possibility for salvation.  A properly trained polisher can move the edge sideways rather than up (closer to the shinogi).  In this case, more metal would be removed from the katana ura (inside) than from the omote (outside).  Not saying this can or should be done to this sword; only the polisher can make that call.

Grey

[TheGermanBastard]

Greetings,

 

Lifeless colored steel, that grey like what I'm seeing in these images, is almost always not good news. Exposure to high heat alone can ruin a sword, it doesn't necessarily have to be scorched. Even the type of rust, dry, scaly, can be an indication of heat exposure. Hope I'm wrong.

 

Also, when a good signed sword by a well regarded sword smith is happened upon, it is highly advisable not to cut corners where polishing is concerned. Especially on a sword that requires extensive foundation work, "penny wise, pound foolish."

 

 

hello Franco,

 

I am not with you on this. Neither on the heat damage nor the polishing approach. heat damage is something you very rarely see in swords. I can not give you a valid number sicne there has been not quantity based study, but I would say that you maye end up with 1 out 500 or less having heat damage. I consider the chances of a blade to be heat damaged at well under 1%.

 

Next I think one shouldn't cut corners on polishing qualiyt but make a resonable choice. I see no reason to get most Wakizashs poluished at 120 USD / inch rate unless it is something really important. Most polished Wakizashis will rank at 2000 - 4000 USD ... so putting this blade through a 120 USD / inch polish would be a waste of money. I have had a lot of different polishers work on swords of mine. Some are worth every dime, others aren't. But I can for sure say that some of the folks offering polishing services in Europe are just doing excellent work at excellent prices. Maybe they can't do a Juyo level polish. But are we looking at a Juyo quality sword here? I guess not ..

[nagamaki - Franco]

Luis,

 

In my way of thinking percentages become meaningless if the sword purchased is heat damaged. In my way of thinking it only takes one wrong decision to see your percentages go up in smoke. In my way of thinking learning how to recognize heat damage before buying a sword is a percentage that should be 100 percent.

 

Again, hopefully I'm wrong, and perhaps, Franco, will be kind enough to share his findings if he has this sword assessed.

 

As for polishing my advice based on experience is wait until you do have a sword worth spending $120.00 an inch to polish, and then don't cut corners.

[TheGermanBastard]

Franco, I can agree to your advice but what would be your advice on this sword - as the topic starter asked about it in particular?

 

I see two possibilities:

 

a) Do not restore it

 

B) Restore it at a budget

 

Due to the pitting in the blade I would advice on a) ... but if there was no pitting I would still advice on B)

 

This sword has probably a market value of under 250.000 Yen when restored. Hence I think the restoration needs to be within a resonable budget.

 

Let's be down to earth. How many of us prefered walking whzen they couldn't afford a Porsche while attending university= I went with a lousy Opel and was just happy with it. It is the same with swords. The majority of swords may not be in the top tier reakm but still simply give someone joy, so that it is fine. You can still eat well at a take away restauran. It is not only the 3 star guide michelin that will make you happy. If someone can not afford a star rated restaurant my advice would not be to keep on being hungry and saving their money until they can have 300 USD supper but be happy with what they have and try to find a restaurant matching their wallet. An affordable frugal meal is not to be considered bad on all occasions.

 

So all the works out there that are "only" Hozon quality level are often still worthy of restoration rather than letting them get wors - but everything out to be within reasonable limits.

 

I do think that looking at this blade in particular, that there is no potential heat damage but may well be wrong and would be happy to find out more.

 

I could give advice on how to determine this in a quick way but since it does not apply with the board rules I will keep my mouth shout.

 

Maybe Francio can show it to a polisher one day and let us know what teh status is.

[Guest Rayhan]

Just my 2 cents here but with the cost involved in restoring this sword vs the damage it is best to let it go or start with a small window in the most damaged area and make a decision from there.

 

I honestly think it's a gone past saving.

[nagamaki - Franco]

Hello All,

 

To be clear and as Ray was the first to say, Franco needs to get an assessment. Otherwise I stand by my previous comments.

 

Thank you.

[francantolin]

zoom pics

[Jean]

RIP

[Geraint]

Which, in this case stands for, "Rust in peace".

 

As I have an interest in blades from this area I would certainly hang onto it as an example of the mei but given the remote possibility that there is enough hamon and boshi to allow for a polish what you have left would be a slender little shadow of it's former self.  Not a good thing fro a shinshinto blade from this province.

 

I once came across a sword in an antique shop who clearly had there own "polisher".  A rather nice shinto katana was reduced to toothpick proportions.  Upset me for days.

 

All the best.

[TheGermanBastard]

Ruined through the grapevine.

[francantolin]

Yes ! What a pity !

 

For me no worries, I bought it just 50 euros on internet , there was only one picture of the sword, 

I ''bet'' it would be a real sword, ( if not, it was just 50 euros...)

 

then discovered the mei when I receive it... just a wonderful feeling !

 

Really sad for the blacksmith Toshimune how take the time to create it !

I can't imagine what old owners have done with this sword for massacre it like that !   

[Ryubiken]

I'm quite certain (convinced) it is past the due date. Although impossible to say without seeing it on hand first.

 

If you're interested on selling it onwards, I would need a good example of abused blade in my collection.

[francantolin]

Hello Kimmo,

 

Thank you for the proposition but not for the moment.

[dwmc]

zoom pics

 

I think the assessment is unfortunately quite evident. However, an excellent candidate for window polish.

[vajo]

Lost blade. Don't ride a dead horse and spare your money.

[TETSUGENDO]

FINI.

[dwmc]

Lost blade. Don't ride a dead horse and spare your money.

Definitely agree Chris! Window suggestion would only be an relatively inexpensive look in to the past as to what the blade once was...

[Dr Fox]

Goodnight Irene.

[francantolin]

 

 

Lost blade. Don't ride a dead horse and spare your money.

Yes sure ! I think I will do it by myself

[francantolin]

Good night !

[TETSUGENDO]

Bonne nuit!