Information About Yoroi

[Itomagoi]

Hello everybody,
I bought this samurai armor from a theatre group for 1000€. :-)
Can someone give me information about it... type, age or translation (Figure 1).
I am grateful for any information.

Thank you!

[Justin Grant]

The translation you seek is a date, unrelated to the Armor, it’s a date the leather pattern design was approved, Shohei (era) 6 year, 6 month, etc. again, all armors with this pattern of leather have this on it.

[IanB]

Peter,  You have dome very well for your money. The armour is a bit mixed but there are some nice pieces there. The helmet is difficult as I cannot see much of it, but I am fairly sure it is not Miochin or other major group - there were many thousands of independent armourers. The top plate of the dou is the shape you get with late Oshu dou, a type originating in Sendai. I am intrigued by the gold dots on the front that look like mon, but again it is not easy to see.  I am a bit unsure about the mask, the nose of which is not the right one. It looks to me like a late 18th / early 19th century armour that has had a different helmet and mask added. Apart from the fact that it stood for a long time with its back to the light, I cannot add much more.

Ian Bottomley

[Baka Gaijin]

Good evening Ian.,

 

Dots look like straight forward Sakura Kamon applique for the gaijin market.

 

We need closeups please.

 

We have sharp eyes down South........

[Itomagoi]

First of all thank you Justin and Ian.

 

I make quick photos of Dots (Sakura) and the helmet.

 

[DaveT]

They look like gilded kokuso with shibu urushi. 

 

What a great find. Well done.

[uwe]

Hi Peter,

 

Justin is right about the date and the meaning. The set seems to be mixed as Ian stated. Very late, Meiji edge Taishō, for exports probably. What bothers me is the mask (menpo). I dare say, fake! But maybe Dave can tell based on the damages on the nose piece?!

A closeup can help here.

My humble opinion!

[DaveT]

Menpo, from what I can see its:

 

1. Somthing made up

2. Maybe an really bad repair in terms of re surfacing

3. Nerigawa with point 2

 

If I can see the back it would help. I think the value in this armour is the kabuto and Dou, so still money well invested

[IanB]

Peter, Thank you for the extra images. The gold sakura flowers on the front of the dou are rather strange but appear quite well done. I rather like the helmet. It is simple but looks competent. From the shape I guess quite late. When the rivets are hammered from the outside, rather than being hidden by countersinking, it is called omote kaku kuri. 

Ian Bottomey 

[Greg F]

Hi Peter great score for that price, congratulations.

 

Greg

[Shogun8]

  On 3/28/2018 at 9:07 AM, IanB said:

When the rivets are hammered from the outside, rather than being hidden by countersinking, it is called omote kaku kuri. 

Ian Bottomey 

 

I am loathe to correct my venerable friend (especially since it's likely just a typo), but I believe the term is omote kara kuri.

[IanB]

Before I wrote the previous post I checked the term in two glossaries because I had kara kuri going around in my head, but both say omote kaku kuri.  This could be a case of a typo being copied. I have just looked up the two terms in a dictionary using romaji and KARA  can be empty, void, stem, stalk etc depending on the kanji. KAKU can be firm, tight, create produce etc. kuri is an alternative reading of saku - make or produce. I would need to look up the actual kanji to be certain which is proper but kaku seems most likely at the moment. The erm is in Sasama's Nihon Katchu Bugu Jiten glossary - where I first found the term. I will have a look later when I have time.

Ian Bottomley

[Itomagoi]

Thank you Dave and Greg for the congratulations.

 

Here are two photos from the back of the menpo.
I think the menpo is made of wood and nodova is made of leather.

[DaveT]

I think its leather, rawhide. 
from the looks of it, its lost its urushi and someone has made a repair with modern products. 

[IanB]

OK, I have tussled with Sasama's glossary where he describes the technique of hammering over the rivets on the outside (in theory at least - in practice they are far too neat, being rivets that are not fully countersunk). The kanji he uses are 面　懸　the second kanji normally being pronounced Ken or Ke, but Nelson's dictionary does not give any meaning and refers the reader to the kanji　街 , kei, kai (ka, karu) with as many meanings as you could shake sticks at, but includes 'trapped' 'construct', 'install'. That makes sense since it implies the rivets were constructed or hammered over from outside. However, Nelson's dictionary only includes the simplified system and modern usage so I turned to Koop and Inada and sure enough, there the kanji was under 20 strokes 懸 listed as KEN, GEN  kakeru to 'hang up' or 'be suspend' - not what is implied here. I can only surmise that the essential kanji has a meaning and possibly is pronounced in a specific way by the armourers.

Interestingly in the Sasama glossary heading the kanji (whose meaning is not described but references the pages where they crop up) are the hiragana カモがい  kamogai - at this point I decided for the sake of sanity to give up.

Ian Bottomley

[DaveT]

So its Kaku, glad that was cleared up.
For a second there Ian I thought you had finally dropped the terminology ball and that we needed to re-write the Samurai Armour Glossary.

On that note, if you are not aware there is a FREE downloadable Glossary prepared by Ian and myself online. Please enjoy it.



https://issuu.com/davethatcher/docs/the_samurai_armour_glossary_2013_v2/
 

[Shogun8]

Thanks so much for researching this in your always thorough way, Ian. It seems I am guilty of taking what was written in the Chappelear as being correct. Evidently a mistake - especially considering the many typos the book contains. And we all know that much of the information contained within has proven to be incorrect in the years since its publication. However, I have also heard a few Japanese experts call this technique omote kara kuri. Oh well.

[DaveT]

If you know a book is flawed with errors it's probably not the best source to use when correcting Ian Bottomley on Katchu.
As you say the experts in Japan are using this term, maybe that is a reflection of their level of expertise?

[Shogun8]

No one is infallible. And some experts are more expert than others.

[IanB]

John,  You were right to bring this up and we should bear in mind that none of us are infallible and certainly not 'expert' (a term I hate). All to often something is dragged from the murky depths of my mind and I use it assuming I have remembered it correctly. All too often I haven't. Not being a Japanese speaker often leads to pitfalls and traps that I fall into all the time. Some people have a facility for language but sadly not me. I might know the individual words but find Japanese grammar a nightmare and stringing them in a sentence beyond me. 

This example is a case in point. As I said above I went back to the source and I'm still not convinced I know which is correct. I did have a thought however. Perhaps what we are looking at is a verb with a U ending since we are taking about the act of forming a rivet head. Either way, we all know what we are talking about - a rivet head that is visible on the outside. A concept that can be expressed just as well in English without having to bother with Japanese terminology. There is a tendency for all of us to throw Japanese terms about with gay abandon, thinking it impresses people, when there are perfectly good names in our own language to express exactly the same meaning. 

Ian Bottomley

[Shogun8]

Thanks so much for your gentlemanly response, Ian.

 

What you say is very true - except that I for one would definitely consider you as one of the West's true experts.