Back To Ko-Tosho Issue

[svarsh]

Well, I sent the one with a butterfly back to the seller and got my money back. Now, I've got another butterfly, this time with a dragonfly. Very large and very thin: 99.6 x 100.5 x 2.1 mm.

Does this one looks like a real ko-tosho? Even as the Kamakura period piece or not? What do you think?

Sergei

 

[johnnyi]

It sure is impressive Sergei. Do you suppose the little blob to the right of the three circles was a repair of some kind made during manufacture? I hope you can show more pictures, especially  from different angles towards the sukashi walls. I like your tsuba a  lot .

 

 

 

 

Johni

[svarsh]

Johni,

It may be a repair. No more pictures right now, I need to take them.

[Henry Wilson]

To be honest, something about it says to me a modern fantasy piece. I think it is the design and how it is near symmetrically arranged as well as its large size which all together in one place do not suggest an antique item.

[vajo]

It looks really like a modern design as Henry said. At the first view i though cool looking "light saber" piece in a star wars design.

 

But and is what what me lets think about it. I have a 19th century made tanto tsuba that looks like from design coming from the 22th century 

[svarsh]

To be honest, something about it says to me a modern fantasy piece. I think it is the design and how it is near symmetrically arranged as well as its large size which all together in one place do not suggest an antique item.

the design and it's symmetrical arrangement are pretty old. Look at “Japanese Swords and Tsuba from the Professor A. Z. Freeman and the Phyllis Sharpe Memorial collections” / Sotheby’s, London, Thursday 10 April 1997; p. 18-19, lot № 37: “A Kamakura-bori Tsuba, Momoyama Period.” Exactly the same design.

Some Chinese and Japanese very old designs look modern to us just because they we introduced to us relatively recently.

Or this:

[svarsh]

It looks really like a modern design as Henry said. At the first view i though cool looking "light saber" piece in a star wars design.

 

But and is what what me lets think about it. I have a 19th century made tanto tsuba that looks like from design coming from the 22th century 

 

Chris, I have 15th century things that look like prototypes of the future designs. And in MET they have 2000 BCE stuff that look pretty modern too. 

The design of my piece is not in question. It was a few months ago, but not now. The question is the plate. And I know - it's hard to tell without having the piece in hands.

E.g. look at this brother-rabbit  . It is far from being modern...

Sergei

[Henry Wilson]

To me, the plate looks fishy too. It seems too uniform (sorry)

[vajo]

I think it must be looked in hands. I bet the picture did not show the real color.

[ROKUJURO]

Sergei,

I think the design is o.k., but the TSUBA looks more like KO KACHUSHI than TOSHO. My doubts are indeed the plate and the uniform corrosion, but this is just a feeling after only looking at photos. 

If it was a modern remake (which I can't decide), it was made by someone who studied TSUBA carefully and who is a good faker (in case he sells these as old and authentic).  

[Marius]

Is this a scan? If so, please take a picture. Scans flatten out objects. If real, a rare and wonderful piece.

[MauroP]

Ko-tōshō or modern fake is not the only option, since a late-Edo revival piece should also be considered.
Bye, Mauro

[svarsh]

Is this a scan? If so, please take a picture. Scans flatten out objects. If real, a rare and wonderful piece.

Yes Marius, it's a scan. The photos are here:

I compared it with a Sasano 'certified' ko-tosho, and YES, it looks differently. Though, Sasano's is of Nanbokucho period, while I consider mine a Kamakura: larger plate, softer iron, etc. If real, of course. The dealer is a fair Japanese guy, though I do not know him in person. Anyway, look at the photos.

Sergei

[svarsh]

Ko-tōshō or modern fake is not the only option, since a late-Edo revival piece should also be considered.

Bye, Mauro

Fully agree. Tosho revival etc. Easily can be.

[svarsh]

Sergei,

 

I think the design is o.k., but the TSUBA looks more like KO KACHUSHI than TOSHO. My doubts are indeed the plate and the uniform corrosion, but this is just a feeling after only looking at photos. 

 

If it was a modern remake (which I can't decide), it was made by someone who studied TSUBA carefully and who is a good faker (in case he sells these as old and authentic).  

The argument between the Tosho and Katchushi is ongoing. I like Jim Gilbet's saying: “Traditionally the old iron plate tsuba are classified into Ko Tosho (old sword smith), and Ko Katchushi (old armor maker) styles. It is sometimes difficult to justify attribution of a given tsuba to the Tosho or Katchushi category. Generally guards with raised rims or relatively complex designs tend to be assigned to Katchushi. This is basically a convention we follow out of habit and convenience.”

 

If one looked at tosho and katchushi specimens at Tsuba Kanshoki by Kazutaro Torogoye, 1975, he would be totally confused.

I attached the photos to to this thread; they are more telling than the scans that I attached initially. The corrosion is not that uniform, and I would say - it's not a lot of rust, almost none. Though, the surface looks chiseled, or hammer-marked.

 

[ROKUJURO]

Sergei,

it is becoming interesting! I have to confess that the photos don't help me with an assessment, but I can tell you that you don't get such a surface with a hammer nor with a chisel. As a smith I should know! But any old TSUBA has this corrosion problem. 

[Henry Wilson]

One more attribution that helps to distinguish Katchushi/Tosho is the type of metal.  I would say that the tsuba in question is Tosho, based on lack of rim as well as the finish and colour of the metal. 

 

I am not sure what the Kamakura date is based on.  From what I recall, conventional wisdom usually points to early Tosho as being relatively small, as they were generally created for the short one-hand swords of the foot soldier (ashigaru).  Considering this, I also think a less complex design might be expected too for something dating back that far.

[Ford Hallam]

I'd be interested to see an image of the edge. Like Henry, I'm not convinced this is a very old piece of iron.....

[svarsh]

Additional pics of tsuba are here.

And the pages about Tosho age too.

Seems like we are all still in doubts.

Any new thoughts with this additional info?

 

 

Sergei

 

[Henry Wilson]

While "Tsuba: An aesthetic study" is a good reference book and guide to tsuba appreciation, in my opinion, it's main short coming is that at times it tends to categorizes tsuba with general definitions that appear to be subjectively derived.  I think some well documented schools (Asakusa for example) can be studied in this way, however with earlier items this can make things confusing as the question arises as to what the author is basing the definitions on.   One good example is what is "soft" iron?  A distinction between soft and hard is mention throughout the treaties but it is left to the reader to deduce what that actually is (if I recall correctly).  Like I said a good book but I would use it as a general reference and a source of food-for-thought, but not the final word.

 

Regarding the tsuba in question, as for me, the jury is out.  The new photos are different compared to the others and shine it in a different light.  I have said my piece and wait for others to chime in.  The only thing is that I would reiterate, as mentioned above, is that there seems to be too much going on at once for it to be "old" in my honest opinion.

[Ed]

I agree with the late edo revival at best, and lean more towards modern, as well as tosho, not katchushi  The design itself doesn't bother me, but the way it is applied does.  The holes are too perfect cut/drilled and the wings look almost as though they were cut with a mill, then altered with a file a bit to give the appearance of age. Compare it closely at the photo of the one on post #4, lots of differences.

 

The finish looks mechanically/chemically aged.  You may not do that with a hammer and chisel, but you could with a hammer, punch and chemicals.

 

But of course this is based on a few photos and is only my guess on it.

 

The finish reminds me of this one.

 

[Ford Hallam]

For what it's worth, from a bloke who actually does work with metal quite a bit  , I'm sorry to say that I agree with those of my fellow board members who've expressed doubts about this being a genuine antique tsuba.

[svarsh]

While "Tsuba: An aesthetic study" is a good reference book and guide to tsuba appreciation, in my opinion, it's main short coming is that at times it tends to categorizes tsuba with general definitions that appear to be subjectively derived.  I think some well documented schools (Asakusa for example) can be studied in this way, however with earlier items this can make things confusing as the question arises as to what the author is basing the definitions on.   One good example is what is "soft" iron?  A distinction between soft and hard is mention throughout the treaties but it is left to the reader to deduce what that actually is (if I recall correctly).  Like I said a good book but I would use it as a general reference and a source of food-for-thought, but not the final word.

 

Regarding the tsuba in question, as for me, the jury is out.  The new photos are different compared to the others and shine it in a different light.  I have said my piece and wait for others to chime in.  The only thing is that I would reiterate, as mentioned above, is that there seems to be too much going on at once for it to be "old" in my honest opinion.

Yes, there is a lot of subjectivity in the book. Not only 'hard/soft' iron. If you look at most comparison tables, you will find that there is no hard evidence whatsoever regarding almost anything. It reminds my medical lectures: 'this symptom can be found here, or can be found there, or can not be found at all. What would you do though?

[svarsh]

For what it's worth, from a bloke who actually does work with metal quite a bit  , I'm sorry to say that I agree with those of my fellow board members who've expressed doubts about this being a genuine antique tsuba.

Will bring it to Shinsa in August, will see... Before that I will treat it is a really old piece, and after - will see... 

[Marius]

Make sure to share the results, please.

[Higo-san]

Regarding the subject:

 

This design is nowadays in Japan commonly regarded as the lacing of an armour (and not butterflies).

 

Best,

 

Chris

[rkg]

since the auction's closed, here's another questionable one:

 

https://www.sendico.com/yahoo/lot_e268192556.html

 

Best,

rkg

(Richard George)

[ROKUJURO]

This one indeed looks like KATCHUSHI (DEN CNC school) to me.