Airborne Sarute

baldi1942 · March 28, 2020

Well, for what it's worth, I have had 2 of these "so called" Air Force or Pilot's sarutes. Both were on Gunto mounted swords. 1 sword was a Showato and the other a "gimei" Tango no Kami Yoshimichi. Both swords bought back in the 80's and straight from vets. I would bet money they are authentic but there also may be copies /repros being made - what isn't being repro'd these days and mostly by the Chinese. Also have a excellent short gunto , absolutely authentic, with a koto Mino? signed blade. Had seen a short gunto mounted Showato blade back around 1978 but did not realize how scarce they were and offered $100 for it as standard Showato were selling for 2-250$ but the vet declined. Bought the one I currently have around 1997 but it has a standard cherry blossom sarute. Of all the old PBS new reels I've seen I've never noticed a pilot with a short gunto but there may have been 1 carried but also have seen them called "tankers" swords. My guess is they may have been custom ordered according to the owner/wearer. That's all folks.

tom

it's nice to be important but more important to be nice

Jareth · March 28, 2020

We know for a fact paratroopers carried swords. We know that this particular sarute was wartime produced. We know that sword fittings could be custom ordered. What we haven't conclusively proved is that this sarute designated paratrooper use & are not simply patriotic!

Bruce Pennington · March 28, 2020

We know for a fact paratroopers carried swords. We know that this particular sarute was wartime produced. We know that sword fittings could be custom ordered. What we haven't conclusively proved is that this sarute designated paratrooper use & are not simply patriotic!

I like your summary of the situation Jareth.

Bruce Pennington · April 10, 2020

Got one! Came on a ‘39 Mantetsu in combat saya! Looks old and worn fitting the wear on the entire piece. Sarute isn’t painted like the rest of the fittings, which says to me that it was made by a different shop and added by the koshirae shop or the officer after purchase.

george trotter · April 10, 2020

Just saw these replies about paratroopers jumping out of planes wearing a sword...well...who'da beleived it...we live and learn...good research guys.

Kai-Gunto · April 10, 2020

Got one! Came on a ‘39 Mantetsu in combat saya! Looks old and worn fitting the wear on the entire piece. Sarute isn’t painted like the rest of the fittings, which says to me that it was made by a different shop and added by the koshirae shop or the officer after purchase.

237EA680-D1DE-468F-9A08-0D03D7F831D7.jpeg DA20C037-D5B4-4FBC-92B4-37B17BDF43C9.jpeg 25C0C77F-7959-46DA-91F8-E12FEF562D2F.jpeg

Looks like the Mon was removed.

Bruce Pennington · April 10, 2020

Looks like the Mon was removed.

I have heard/read that some guys did that before turning their swords in at the end of the war, and it was my first thought too, but the hole is on BOTH sides of the kabutogane.

Neil - I know I've seen this before. Is it you that has a similar kabuto with holes?

Dave R · April 10, 2020

Just saw these replies about paratroopers jumping out of planes wearing a sword...well...who'da beleived it...we live and learn...good research guys.

Propaganda film, but wartime in date...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XqbOSmM9LCY

PNSSHOGUN · April 11, 2020

I have heard/read that some guys did that before turning their swords in at the end of the war, and it was my first thought too, but the hole is on BOTH sides of the kabutogane.

Neil - I know I've seen this before. Is it you that has a similar kabuto with holes?

image3.jpeg image1.jpeg

It's definitely where a Mon used to be, they were attached with a pin through the Kabutogane like you see on yours then brazed/peened on the inside before assembly.

Bruce Pennington · April 11, 2020

Sorry, I meant to post a close-up:

IJASWORDS · April 11, 2020

Ok Bruce, at great expense, I investigated a mon for you by pulling one apart. For comparison...... Compared to yours.

Your hole is much lower than a mon hole.

Your hole is much bigger than my hole.

My securing pin is the size of a thumb tack.

Yours was never soldered in place. That's why I am comparing it to a push fit type.

But saying all that, different makers could do different things.

Now I gotta repair my sword, things I do for the NMB!

Bruce Pennington · April 11, 2020

"No greater love..." Neil, "than a guy who lays down his Kai for his friends"! I think I read that verse somewhere?

I scanned the Mon thread and there are some with mon much lower than yours. But it still doesn't make sense that the holes are on both sides. I'm sure I haven't seen a kabutogane with mon on both sides, have you?

{but I fear we're side-tracking this great thread}

April 11, 2020

Just looking at the hole position on Bruce's Kabutogane:

Could it be for a 2 kanji name tag as shown in this one of Neil's from the Mon thread?

Kai-Gunto · April 11, 2020

On my kaigunto

IJASWORDS · April 11, 2020

Malcolm, there is a difference. In Bruce's example, the leaves below the cherry blossom have not been removed for a mon to sit flat. In the example you compare it to, the leaf has been cut away to fit a mon.

April 11, 2020

Ah, I missed that Neil.

Bruce Pennington · April 11, 2020

They weren't cut away in Thomas' example, though. Differences with Thomas' and mine - his was punched in for the "pin" where mine looks drilled (though Neil's looks drilled, too).

Differences in methods are easily explained by different shops, different techniques. But my key problem is the holes are on both sides of the kabutogane.

Ontario_Archaeology · April 11, 2020

On this example it doesn't look like the bottom blossom has been replaced. As for a hole on both sides, is there any examples of Gunto with more than 1 type of mon on it? I do recall examples with multiple mons on it, but I can't remember if they were all the same or not. In a previous thread I think I remember seeing them in some unique places. Hopefully this helps.

Thanks

Matt

Bruce Pennington · April 11, 2020

EAA084D4-09A6-4997-9FCE-8F4A04B0C312_1586527338779.jpg

On this example it doesn't look like the bottom blossom has been replaced. As for a hole on both sides, is there any examples of Gunto with more than 1 type of mon on it? I do recall examples with multiple mons on it, but I can't remember if they were all the same or not. In a previous thread I think I remember seeing them in some unique places. Hopefully this helps.

Thanks

Matt

Matt! That’s exactly in the right place as the one I have.

IJASWORDS · April 11, 2020

Bruce I forgot to ask, are the holes threaded?

Bruce Pennington · April 12, 2020

Bruce I forgot to ask, are the holes threaded?

I can't tell, Neil. Even magnified, I can't tell if I'm seeing threads or just two layers of something in the hole. My gut says it's threaded.

george trotter · April 12, 2020

Propaganda film, but wartime in date...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XqbOSmM9LCY

Propaganda movie/pics...you might be right Dave..could this be another example of us westerners 'inventing' things (Type O, 3, 44 etc)...I think we need proof that they jumped out of planes wearing swords....Nick?

Dave R · April 12, 2020

Propaganda movie/pics...you might be right Dave..could this be another example of us westerners 'inventing' things (Type O, 3, 44 etc)...I think we need proof that they jumped out of planes wearing swords....Nick?

The point of the film, is that the Japanese audience believed that Para's jumped with swords, and the Japanese authorities wanted the audience to believe. Personally, I think they did, but that does not mean they all had a bespoke sarute or a special sword.

Jareth · April 12, 2020

I agree with the propaganda aspect of the film plus the culture of the sword. I had read at least two references that once pilots entered their planes & photos were over the pilots handed their swords back to mechanics etc. I believe paratroopers, based on the patriotic film footage had their swords with them but uncertain if they actually jumped with them lose, or where they secured in drop leg bag or in mass inside a drop container

Dave R · April 12, 2020

If you watch the film carefully, you will see drop bags and swords in use.

Jareth · April 12, 2020

That's a very well known, famous patriotic propaganda film. Don't know how accurate it was to actual airborne combat drop. Leg bags were also used for rifles etc. They also used drop containers

PNSSHOGUN · April 12, 2020

Well whatever was filmed appears to have been a full Paratroop exercise so at least all of that footage is 100% "correct".

Jareth · April 12, 2020

It's as inconclusive as the opening subject. Unless new info surfaces we will never know if sarute design was just another private purchase motif or an indication of airborne