Gendaito Finally Arrived ,but Could Do With Some Advice Please

[matthew]

Ive recently bought his showa era gendaito  as you may have seen in my last post I was asking you guys for your opinion, well its arrived today and looking at it you can see most of the brass work has turned green ,is it best to leave it like this or maybe give it a light clean maybe with a soft wire wool , I don't mind the appearance as long as its not going to get worse or slowly make the brass deteriorate , also when looking at the blade there a just a few black stains that maybe came from the saya ? , I don't expect these can be removed without a full polish? I have also pointed out a patch where it looks rubbed whether someone has had a go at getting a stain out , I'm going to keep this sword and would like to make sure its well looked after ,ive attached a few pictures to see what you think,

thanks for your help

matthew

[Geraint]

Dear Matthew.

 

Now you just need to go and lie down in a darkened room for mentioning wire wool on this forum, certainly several members will have to do the same as they will be feeling faint at the very thought.

 

So that's a "No!" then.  You might try a stiff brush like an old toothbrush but watch out for fraying the ito which might be very fragile.  Some careful work with a wooden cocktail stick might do the trick.

 

As far as the blade goes you might free those black marks with some uchiko, you certainly aren't going to harm a top level polish on this one, otherwise gentle rubbing with some sword oil.

 

Whatever happens go slow and enjoy your sword.

 

All the best.

[matthew]

Dear Matthew.

 

Now you just need to go and lie down in a darkened room for mentioning wire wool on this forum, certainly several members will have to do the same as they will be feeling faint at the very thought.

 

So that's a "No!" then.  You might try a stiff brush like an old toothbrush but watch out for fraying the ito which might be very fragile.  Some careful work with a wooden cocktail stick might do the trick.

 

As far as the blade goes you might free those black marks with some uchiko, you certainly aren't going to harm a top level polish on this one, otherwise gentle rubbing with some sword oil.

 

Whatever happens go slow and enjoy your sword.

 

All the best.

Thanks for the advice , and don't worry I will leave the wire wool in the cupboard ! I will try an old toothbrush maybe ,in some places the green build up is quite thick and might come off with a toothpick , the appearance doesn't bother me its just that I don't want it to make the brass deteriorate ,

many thanks

[Dave R]

 You can also try dilute ammonia and cotton buds. But start in a hidden area, and check to see how it works.

[Bruce Pennington]

I’ve never found anything that will get the black spots off of the blade. For the seppa, I use a rag, pour a small amount of baking soda on the rag and squirt Lemmon juice into the baking soda. As it fizzes, rub the rust. It works slowly and takes some rubbing. I’ve never had to clean a tsuba and wouldn’t try the mix on it as it will probably take off the original coloration.

[PNSSHOGUN]

Just leave it alone.

[Stephen]

John's advice is best, but if you just have too!!!? use  high grade uchiko, i cant tell from the pic's have you tried goop off? they may be stains.

[matthew]

John's advice is best, but if you just have too!!!? use  high grade uchiko, i cant tell from the pic's have you tried goop off? they may be stains.

yes maybe be best to leave it alone , I havnt touched it with anything yet as I only received it today , the black marks look like stains not rust , if I could find some high grade uchiko I would probably be tempted.

thanks

[ROKUJURO]

In my experience, I have had similar green corrosion on brass (or copper or nickel silver) when tannic acid (= leather) and grease were present at the same time on the item. Cleaning was always easy with a dry piece of cloth, no chemicals were necessary. 

[Stephen]

often blades were packed by GIs with all types of coatings, goo b gone, goop, acetone any good cleaner may take them off,,,,,very long shot.

[Stephen]

wait were talking about blade stains right,  im not a purest when it comes to green copper, id use brasso on just it not other fittings other than seppa

[Ian B3HR2UH]

Matthew , do NOT touch the brasso , this piece would never have had a polished brass finish on it . You will wreck it if you do that . Hasten very slowly here . Ian Brooks

[Stephen]

Its been wrecked already with something to turn patina green. That mr Brooks is not

ORG.

[Stephen]

what normal tarnesh looks like

 

 

 

yours has desirable four seppa each side, MHO they should be restored

[IJASWORDS]

WHO SAID AMMONIA??? NEVER use ammonia on copper/brass/bronze. Why? It is one compound that causes intergrannular cracking/corrosion on copper and its alloys. Look it up, should be easy to verify. It was first found out when a ships hull was loaded with rolled cartridge brass, 1800's I think. When it arrived the sheet brass was in pieces, the cause, ammonia in rats urine. Trust me, I am a metallurgist.   

[vajo]

Cotton tissue and a few drops of choji to clean it.

BTW the green oxids a very poison. 

[matthew]

Thanks for all your replies , for now I think I will leave it alone , the green build up is very stubborn and wont shift with a tooth pick , someone I know said maybe try limescale remover , but theres no way I'm going to give anything a try like this ,I don't want to end up with shiny brass fittings !

[Dave R]

WHO SAID AMMONIA??? NEVER use ammonia on copper/brass/bronze. Why? It is one compound that causes intergrannular cracking/corrosion on copper and its alloys. Look it up, should be easy to verify. It was first found out when a ships hull was loaded with rolled cartridge brass, 1800's I think. When it arrived the sheet brass was in pieces, the cause, ammonia in rats urine. Trust me, I am a metallurgist.   

 

 Which is why I suggested DILUTE ammonia, and trying in an obscure place. Advice from a museum curator to me about cleaning Nihonto fittings.

[Stephen]

And i didnt want it shiny just the green corrosion removed,. you could ask Ford sensei.

[vajo]

Its my experience to remove the oxidations with a toothstick, a cotton tissue and some drops of choji öl. It works fine and after it didn't oxide further.

Stephen is right to don't get it shiny.

[TheGermanBastard]

I’ve never found anything that will get the black spots off of the blade. For the seppa, I use a rag, pour a small amount of baking soda on the rag and squirt Lemmon juice into the baking soda. As it fizzes, rub the rust. It works slowly and takes some rubbing. I’ve never had to clean a tsuba and wouldn’t try the mix on it as it will probably take off the original coloration.

 

never dull / petrol with enough patience

[TheGermanBastard]

PS: I am not sure if it is a Showato or Gendaito judging from the pictures. I tend towards Gendaito but as far as i am concerned I am not 100% sure either way.

[matthew]

PS: I am not sure if it is a Showato or Gendaito judging from the pictures. I tend towards Gendaito but as far as i am concerned I am not 100% sure either way.

I believe its a gendaito or hope it is, here is the write up for when I bought it .

 

This is a great opportunity to purchase genuine hand forged and smith signed Japanese sword from WW2 . This is not a mass produced wartime sword. It is one of only 10% of Japanese Officers swords that were hand forged by skilled sword-smiths. That this weapon has certainly seen action is evident from the service wear to the finish of the scabbard and the sun faded sword knot. It would have broken it's officer owners heart to surrender the prized sword that he had carried throughout many years of conflict and deprivation. This is a Company Officers sword, either a Lieutenant or Captain, but most probably a Captain as he would have been very unlucky indeed to end the war as a Lieutenant. The sword is pre-WW2 so he was almost certainly a regular career Officer too, probably seeing service in China during the 1930's.

A fantastic original pre-war early 1930’s Japanese Officers sword (shingunto), Showa era gendaito (Smith hand forged blade) blade 26.5 in., shinogi-zukuri with large kissaki, notare hamon becoming suguha at the boshi, gilt copper habaki, long nakago with two mekugi ana, signed 'Minamoto Masauji Kore Saku', high quality pre- war regulation officer's mountings, the pierced tsuba and the seppa with matching assembly number 0207, tsuka secured with two mekugi, sarute formed as two clasped hands with brown and blue sword knot, regulation steel saya. Hawley notes a Masauji

working in 1931.

This is a great opportunity to purchase genuine hand forged and smith signed Japanese sword from WW2 . This is not a mass produced wartime sword. It is one of only 10% of Japanese Officers swords that were hand forged by skilled sword-smiths. That this weapon has certainly seen action is evident from the service wear to the finish of the scabbard and the sun faded sword knot. It would have broken it's officer owners heart to surrender the prized sword that he had carried throughout many years of conflict and deprivation. This is a Company Officers sword, either a Lieutenant or Captain, but most probably a Captain as he would have been very unlucky indeed to end the war as a Lieutenant. The sword is pre-WW2 so he was almost certainly a regular career Officer too, probably seeing service in China during the 1930's.

 

 

[TheGermanBastard]

Hallo Matthew,

 

personally I tend towards Gendaito. I think your hopes are legitimate. Again it is a bit difficult to tell from the images but the Hamon is not the typical Seki Sanbon sugi oil quenched type as found on most Showatos. Also you have no arsenal stamps as  far as I can see.

 

Well, the person who wrote the description was a bit enthusiastic and euphemistic. The seller obvisouly enjoyed putting up a nice background story ... which is nothing but a nice story coming straight out of his vivid imaguination. I am by far not an expert on WWII blades in special nor anything in general but I wouldn't dare to state that this is a defintive pre WWII sword. I couldn't tell that on an undated blade. Also I do not believe that there nly 10% of this periode swords are Gendaito. I would estimate the number to be higher but again I have no valid data for that.

 

The mere fact is that you have bought a solid Gunto. Nothing wrong about it

 

To remove the dark rust you can use petrol with sufficient patiente. It may take several months but won't damage the blade.

[matthew]

Hallo Matthew,

 

personally I tend towards Gendaito. I think your hopes are legitimate. Again it is a bit difficult to tell from the images but the Hamon is not the typical Seki Sanbon sugi oil quenched type as found on most Showatos. Also you have no arsenal stamps as  far as I can see.

 

Well, the person who wrote the description was a bit enthusiastic and euphemistic. The seller obvisouly enjoyed putting up a nice background story ... which is nothing but a nice story coming straight out of his vivid imaguination. I am by far not an expert on WWII blades in special nor anything in general but I wouldn't dare to state that this is a defintive pre WWII sword. I couldn't tell that on an undated blade. Also I do not believe that there nly 10% of this periode swords are Gendaito. I would estimate the number to be higher but again I have no valid data for that.

 

The mere fact is that you have bought a solid Gunto. Nothing wrong about it

 

To remove the dark rust you can use petrol with sufficient patiente. It may take several months but won't damage the blade.

Thanks for your reply , I'm by far an expert on Japanese swords and to a degree go by other peoples knowledge , ive allways been looking for a ww2 sword that has a traditionally made blade , this sword hasn't any arsenal stamps and so I think it must be a traditional ,but then theres a lot to learn about Japanese swords , hopefully I havnt made a mistake.

kind regards

matthew

[TheGermanBastard]

Hello Matt, not having any arsenal stamps does not mean it has to be a Gendaito ... neither does having an arsenal stamp for sure make it a Showato. Overal yes but still it is a case by case decision.

 

I do not think that you have made a mistake