UK Customs and the new legislation

[IanB]

HM Revenue and Customs seem to have moved with some haste on the new legislation. Having bought a sword in Japan I am now trying to get it through the 'ring of steel' that has been erected around our islands. They appear to have adopted an attitude that assumes the import is illegal. After sitting for a week in the infamous 'International Hub', during which time the tracking system reported that it was awaiting Custom Charging, they then put out a standard letter of notification that the parcel has been detained.

 

This letter is an absolute delight. Couched in pseudo legal gobbledygook even the opening paragraph is incorrect since it states that the parcel contains a 'prohibited sword(s)'. In fairness it goes on to mention the act and rather coyly tells you about the 'defences'. Finally, just to fill you with confidence in our noble law enforcers, it describes the parcel, listing: SENDER, with my name and address and the DECLARATION with 'ANTIQUE Japanese SWORD 300 YEARS OLD'.

 

Just to make life easier, they send you one of those really friendly little government booklets full of dire warnings about seized objects being destroyed, and other sundry useless information. It does however state that there is no time limit on how long you can take to make your claim for the recovery of you property but suggest a month. The letter however graciously gave me 14 days. Finally there is the sneaky little entry that states that '... to restore a seized thing this will normally be on payment of a fee.' That fee being of an unspecified amount 'depending on the specific circumstances'.

 

So you import a perfectly legal object that they say is illegal and then have to prove it to be legal and pay for the privilege. Pure govermental emb*gg*rment! I will keep the board posted on developments.

 

Ian Bottomley

[pcfarrar]

Hi Ian,

 

I got a sword from US last week with no problems whatsoever. The only difference being I asked them to put "Harmonized Tariff 9706.00.00" on the item description.

 

Please let us know how you get on.

[John A Stuart]

Plus, Ian, I would expect your creds in the field would make them ashamed of suspecting nefarious reasons on importing an article clearly within your field of study. Luck, John

[nagamaki - Franco]

If I read and understood the new law correctly (between the lines that is), the intent was to shift the entire burden of proof on the owner. So, goodluck with educating the customs people!

[Brian Hancock]

Hi Ian, I was talking to Mike H-S the other day and he is having the same problem with "The Hub" He has tried phoning twice only to be told "Someone will phone you back" needless to say nobody bothered. He has now e-mailed them and is awaiting a reply at their leasure. It seems to me these people aren't accountable to anyone other than themselves and can interpret the law as they see fit. Mikes sword had all the correct paperwork which clearly stated the sword was 1350 - 1400 period. You could have nightmares wondering if some dipstick in "The Hub" is playing at Samurai's with it. Brian.

[Brian]

Just as long as you don't get the customs treatment I have received lately.

 

Them: "We are charging you 30% import duty on this sword you just imported"

Me: " But it has the correct customs tarriff code and is clearly described as an antique Japanese sword"

Them: "We need proof in writing that it is an antique"

Me: "What kind of proof will you accept"

Them: "Some certificate of authenticity"

Me: "Will you let me get a society or organisation to come here and declare it?"

Them: "No. We want a certificate of authenticity"

Me: "But that doesn't exist. What kind of certificate? It is clearly antique and out of polish, and it would cost me a fortune to send it to Japan to get papers"

Them: "We won't accept papers from Japan..they must be in English. A certificate of authenticity"

Me: "Umm...can you describe the certificate or tell me what you need, so that I can get it?"

Them: "No..we want a certificate. From someone we can hold liable"

Me: "So what can I give you now to prove it is antique"

Them: "You will show us a certificate of authenticity or you will pay the 30%"

 

A later conversation with them turned up the fact that they won't accept origami from Japan, they would not accept a certificate from the JSSUS or the NCJSC, they wouldn't accept a declararation from the seller. They just wanted some certificate, but couldn't tell me where to get it, or what they would accept. They did mention a letter "From the Ministry of culture in Japan, through the American consulate??!! would be ok.

3 Other collectors subsequently had the same problems. I paid my 30%.

A high level meeting had some success, but no real finite conclusion. Right now I am not sure of the status of imports here. Some get through, some not. Mid level swords that are not from reputable auction houses are a problem. They make the rules, and take your cash.

 

You think you have problems?

 

Brian

[pcfarrar]

It might be advisable for UK members buying swords from Japan or US to get shipping via Fedex. Fedex shipments go through a different customs procedure for entry and as its an "in house" customs its much easier to get to speak to people.

[IanB]

John,

Better than that, I was able to mention I had done some of the preliminary work with the Home Office and include a page for the consultation document on the amendment to the act with my name on it. With a bit of luck that might cause a few minor palpitations amongst the stony-hearted ******s.

 

I have also been reading the act and although I am no lawyer, para 6 is reasonably clear since it states that for paras 3 & 4 (collectors and martial arts practitioners etc) ... a person shall be taken to have shown a matter specified in those paragraphs if -

a) sufficient evidence of that matter is adduced to raise an issue with respect to it; and

b) the contrary is not proved beyond a reasonable doubt.

 

Now this suggests to me that if you do offer evidence that a sword is old, they have then to prove it isn't. I suppose the word 'sufficient' might be a sticking point but you will have raised an issue. They then have the onus put on them to prove it isnt old.

 

Ian

[IanB]

All,

In a more charitable vein and being serious for once, I feel that the guys at the International Hub are in something of an impossible position. They have been taxed with implementing a law that requires them to differentiate between something real and something fake that by definition imitate the real with varying degrees of closeness. How can they differentiate without many years of study. I used the analogy of the £20 note. A bank worker might recognise it, if it is sufficiently bad, but most members of the public couldn't. We have had enough examples on the NMB which members could not agree was real or not.

 

What is needed is a system of help; a pool of people willing to advise either the police or customs in those cases where there is doubt about the authenticity of a sword. I would be grateful for member's views on this idea.

 

Ian

[John A Stuart]

I think that is a wonderful idea. The UK Token Society or some people like yourself could vet the pieces being imported. It might cause a delay, but, that would be better than losing the piece or paying enormous duty. It might help with future legislation as well because then there would be a body with previous governmental approval that could be called upon for more recognised input. John

[Mark C]

Hi Ian and all,

 

Brilliant idea.

 

On the Police idea, I did try offering my services at my local police station when the last knives amnesty happened but was politelty told to go away

Maybe if my local police station was to receive a letter from one of the two Societies that I belong to, they might listen.

 

Regards

 

Mark

[IanB]

Mark,

I'm sorry that happened. I suspect that they had taken the attitude, quite rightly from their point of view, that if it came in over the counter the owner didn't want it and it should be destroyed. I do not think letters from organisations such as the ToKen would do any good since most police forces will not have heard of them. This idea has to be accepted at a higher level and then it can trickle down. Things have been mooted and we will have to wait and see if there is any interest shown in the idea.

 

Ian

[w.y.chan]

Ian, sorry to hear what happened but not surprise there is going to be difficulty so soon after the implementation of the new law. There is going to be hiccups on the way and it will be a learning curve for the custom people. I am not sure if bonifide dealers selling to the UK would have problems if they put their business details as traders of genuine art swords.

A little while ago Clive Sinclaire mentioned that custom people have his details and whenever imports from overseas arrives it get through the system without problem. Maybe customs should setup a database with collectors and martial artists so they dont subject to any restrictions?

[IanB]

This would be useful I agree but the Home Office took the stance from the outset that there must be no licencing or similar administrative work involved. No doubt officers do recognise certain names when shipments come in which would certainly speed things up.

 

As an update, I rang Coventry yesterday and was told that there didn't seem to be any problem with my shipment but that because of their workload it would be another 10 days or so until my sword is released.

 

Ian Bottomley.

[IanB]

Well folks I said I would keep you informed of developments with the import of my daito so here it is. I am delighted to say that I now have my sword :D :D :D . Even better, it exceeds my expectations, but that's another matter.

HM Revenue and Customs managed the following timetable: Sword was posted in Japan 16.54, 21-04-2008. left Osaka 4.32, 22-04, arrived at International Hub, Coventry 21.07, 22-04, awaiting Customs charging 21.20, 22-04. Letter sent to me 23-04 and reply sent following day. It then languished until 20.19, 9-05 when it was finally released and forwarded to my local depo for collected on the 12-05. All told a total of 20 days or so.

Now for the sting. Having admitted it was antique and releasing it, they then charged me at full 17.5% VAT (instead of 5% since it is antique) and added Import Duty as well. . So now I have to embark on the tedious business of trying to claim back money I should not have had to pay. Since I am already in dispute over a similar charge applied to a sword I sent for polishing, and have been since last December, it remains to be seen how long this will go on.

 

Ian Bottomley

[Bugyotsuji]

Good luck Ian. Be crisp and clear and polite and infinitely patient, and keep copies of everything in duplicate since you cannot hope that their right hand will know what their left is doing. But I am sure that is what you are already doing...

[pcfarrar]

Now for the sting. Having admitted it was antique and releasing it, they then charged me at full 17.5% VAT (instead of 5% since it is antique) and added Import Duty as well. . So now I have to embark on the tedious business of trying to claim back money I should not have had to pay. Since I am already in dispute over a similar charge applied to a sword I sent for polishing, and have been since last December, it remains to be seen how long this will go on.

y

 

The exact same happened to me on a 19th century woodblock print. I sent them a letter saying the print was clearly antique and about 6 months later I got a cheque in the post.

 

Also a member contacted me to say he imported a katana last week to the UK using Fedex and received it in less than 24 hours. The sword had no trouble in Fedex customs. So it looks like Fedex could potentially be the best shipping method to use.

[Guest nickn]

if they charge tax/vat at the wrong rate (for doing this they charge £8!) pay by cheque then cancel it you will get a letter from parcel force asking why the cheque was cancelled phone and explain and the duty/vat will be cancelled

[Jean]

Nick wrote :

 

"pay by cheque then cancel it"

 

You are very lucky if you can do it, in France, the law is very stict concerning Check cancellation. Without entering into details, it can be cancelled only if it was issued under threat...

[Guest nickn]

the reason you cancel the cheque is

the incorrect tax/vat was charged by royalmail/customs a perfectly good reason

[Brian]

I think that may be illegal in a number of countries. Maybe not in the UK, but I wouldn't advise it at all, especially publicly on a forum :?

The correct way is to pay your excess duties, and then put in your claim for incorrect duties, which will take a few months, but usually succeeds. That is the recommendation here.

 

Brian

[Guest nickn]

you are right brian

its just so frustrating to get a bill for the wrong amount then spend months trying to get your money back but still haveing to pay the £8 for them to do the maths wrong

sometimes they confuse pounds with dollars and charge duty on the dollar amount as if its a pound amount .all these wrong amounts happen so often i am starting to believe its deliberate

[deskjet]

hi everybody,yes the exact same thing happened to me today .a lovely Tadatsugu tsuba,stated value $410 CLEARLY STATED OVER 100 yRS OLD AND THEY CHARGE YOU 17.5% VAT INSTEAD OF 5% .i have a couple of yaris and a sword coming back from Japan soon and have asked if they can send them by fed ex as they seem to be much less hassle .it seems ems is the favored courier in Japan but they use our parcelforce ,which is where all he problems seem to be .i think as has been said before try and get your items sent by fed ex.

 

Anthony

[IanB]

All, It seems that the UK customs are now getting the hang of the new legislation. Having just bought a katana blade in shirasaya I decided to circumvent the official path whereby they seize the goods and send you a letter to that effect. As soon as I had bought the blade I wrote to them enclosing a copy of the eBay printout showing all the details of the transaction and stating that they would be getting a parcel with the EMS number. I also enclosed a copy of the page from Hawley with the smith's listing. Bingo!! The plan worked a treat - no letter of seizure and the sword released and charged correctly within a couple of days. Ian Bottomley