A farewell to arms (or at least this forum).

[Guest Simon Rowson]

Hi all,

 

As some of you already know, I recently returned to this forum after several months sabbatical due to some family hassles.

 

I was delighted to find all the old faces still here and Brian doing a grand job as usual. However, I was less pleased to realise that there were a couple of fairly recent members who have seemingly made it their mission to be as scathing and arrogant as possible to both beginners (who, lacking expertise, obviously need advice) and to anyone else who dares to disagree with their opinions.

 

I have always believed that this forum was for students of all levels but it now appears to have become permeated by an unpleasant air of sword-snobbery and elitism (sometimes regrettably reinforced by older members).

 

I have never claimed to be an expert of any sort but I have tried to make constructive comments as and when I could. Unfortunately, the new oppressive and petty atmosphere of "ooooh - don't offend the experts or they'll smite you down with a verbal thunderbolt of righteous indignation" is something I really don't have time for.

 

Tellingly, I think that it's highly significant that the few actual Japanese gentlemen who regularly contribute to this site (such as the inimitable Moriyama-san and Morita-san) are unfailingly polite, helpful, balanced and unprovocative in their comments. This is in rather stark contrast to certain Western individuals who profess to have an in-depth, nigh infallible, knowledge of Nihonto (gained, one supposes, through countless years of study and kantei with venerable Japanese sensei) but who arrogantly ram their supposed "superiority" down other member's throats.

It is a great shame that, along with such a prestigious knowledge of swords, they couldn't have also learnt one of the finest of Japanese cultural traits - that of humility.

 

Therefore, I will be leaving my account open for a few days so that any of my NMB friends who want my private e-mail can contact me via PM. After that, I'll be shutting it down and signing off for good.

 

All the best,

Simon

[Bugyotsuji]

Well, let's hope that this was spoken in the heat of the moment and you will feel able to reconsider in the light of Monday. From what I have seen of your posts I feel that we need people like you on this site, and I would be unhappy if you actually went ahead and decided to follow through. Ultimately it is your decision, though.

 

By the same token I must admit to agreeing here in public with much of what you say.

For me it has been a lesson in diplomacy and tact just to stay in touch here. Sometimes I wonder what I am doing here, but then I always remember that there is so much to learn. I don't really need to understand the psychology or motives of some of the more unusual people on this site.

[Brian]

Simon,

 

I wish you well, and the forum is always here for you if you come across that sleeper Sadakatsu or Shinkai or whaever and feel like a discussion on it. No-one needs to "close" any forum accounts. If you choose not to read or post that is well within anyone's rights, but everyone is welcome here at any time. You know what they say "Times change, people change, currencies fluctuate" so check in from time to time, and you are welcome here anytime. Hope to catch you in Tokyo if I make it back there sometime.

 

Regards,

Brian

[paulb]

I would like to pick up on a number of points Simon makes. I have emailed him directly but then thought there are some things we should all consider.

1. It is perfectly reasonable and indeed desirable that people new to the subject should feel free to ask for help. those of us that have been around along time recieved such help from others and should be prepared to offer help.

2. The manner in which people respond to such questions is, to say the least, off putting. I am always amazed with the ease with which supposedly knowledgable people are prepared to express an opinion as though it was an indesputable fact based usually on poor photographs.

"it is" should be replaced by "I think it is".

3. In defence of those more knowlegable people it must be very frustrating to be presented with the same questions about the same subject time and again. Beginners should not use the board as a lazy short cut in place of study. Those of us who began our Nihonto career long before the internet was available and when the only book on the subject in English was Robinsons have had to put many hours in to gain at least some understanding of the subject.

 

We are a very small community we need to help and ecourage all we can. This should be in a way that does not make people uncomfortable when they ask questions. We must also accept that if we make statements as if they were facts i.e. "It is definately Gimei" those with less knowledge will take it as a fact rather than an opinion. Therefore it is important that we make clear that what we say is just that, an opinion.

There is a place for disagreement, constructive debate and argument in any study group, that is how we all learn. There should be no place for arrogance, sarcasm or rudeness, particualrly when being asked for help.

I know its Sunday and I'm preaching (perhaps I missed my vocation) but please lets use the board for the benefit of all and not lose valuable members as a result of poor or arrogant communication.

regards

Paul

[Brian]

Agreed, and I have been addressing much of that through private messages, and I must say that the reactions from most have been very positive. We must remember that the internet medium is notorious for not conveying tone very well, and it is easy to be taken the wrong way.

I would aslo remind everyone that there is a "report post" function if you deem a post to be arrogant or rude, and each case is addressed fast.

Let's all put in an effort to get along, understand the intentions of the other person, and above all, remember that the aim is to have fun, while dealing with a very ancient and serious subject.

If anyone has an issues to address, rather contact me or a moderator and let's try and sort it out. Bottling it in until you reach breaking point is not constructive or beneficial to anyone

 

Brian

[sencho]

3. In defence of those more knowlegable people it must be very frustrating to be presented with the same questions about the same subject time and again.

 

If they don't like the question or it frustrates them, ignore it and move on to whatever floats their boat! Why do they bother to answer, if it is so frustrating? Plenty of polite knowledgeable people on the board are only to happy to help, and less knowledgeable people are only to happy to try to help too, as a way to increase their own personal education. The elitists should let it go and only answer the elite postings!!

 

Beginners should not use the board as a lazy short cut in place of study.

 

Correct Paul..... they should use the board as an equal to gain knowledge as well as other websites and books. They should certainly not be shot down for trying to gain some knowledge from an easily accessible medium.

 

[EDIT] Paul, this isn't an attack on your post or a rebuttal... your post is very constructive and I agree whole heartedly with your general theme. [END EDIT]

 

I agree with Simon almost 100%, but I do choose to try ignore the rudeness, even though it does make me shake my head in incredulity at times....

 

Still the shochu will get us through... stiff upper lip and all that, what!.... see you in May, Si....

 

Cheers!

[Nobody]

Therefore, I will be leaving my account open for a few days so that any of my NMB friends who want my private e-mail can contact me via PM. After that, I'll be shutting it down and signing off for good.

Simon,

 

I think I already know your private e-mail address. But I expect you to come back before long. You are one of indispensable members.

[remzy]

I do not personnaly know you, but i too ,felt the way that you probably felt while typing this, however i hope you reconcider your decision of permanently leaving.

As Brian said, things changes, not always for the best, but the good side is that nothing is set in stone and with good attitudes all around, we can all make it better.

[Bungo]

hope you don't mean me with my now stale Euro jokes...................usually I counter arrogance with outragous jokes ( often repeated and old ). Surprise, surprise, often time the sob have their " softer " sides. Just have to know how to stroke 'em.................

 

p.s. correction............... the joke is on USD, not Euro

milt

[drbvac]

I have only been on here for a short while and I agree that the comments at times (not necessarily to me) are indeed quite caustic. I have read every thing I can my hands on from Robinson to all the little green paperbacks from Hawley which I have managed to get nearly 30 of (anyone wanting a photocopy of one let me know as I dont think they are even in print anymore and I don't think the copyright is still in effect) but I digress.

 

The point I want to make is the knowledge base is from neophyte to true expert and in any group you will always find those who know more ( or think they do ) and those who know less ( and know they do) . I have posted some questions that some may think I am taking the lazy way out but that is usually AFTER I haven't been able to find anything especially related to Tosuga which just happen to be on my blades and I know nothing about. In addition reading Kanjei - dates aren't bad but smiths names, even with Hawleys brown book there are thousands that look alike, and for mumei blades the odds on my being able to attribute anything other than by a semi educated guess are zero to minus 4.

 

So i really appreciate any help, any time and after being shown the way several times I may start to get it. I guess the big thing is to treat others with respect and as my grannie used to say " if you got nuthin good to say keep quiet"

[Brian]

Brian,

 

Don't go photocopying those monographs just yet

They are still in print and I am sure still in copyright. http://www.wmhawley.com/products/monographs/ and http://www.wmhawley.com/products/books/

 

Regards,

Brian

[Bungo]

Brian,

 

Don't go photocopying those monographs just yet

They are still in print and I am sure still in copyright. http://www.wmhawley.com/products/monographs/ and http://www.wmhawley.com/products/books/

 

Regards,

Brian

 

It gets so bad you are talking to yourself now ?

ease up on the " sauce ", too early in the morning

milt

[Brian]

drbvac = Dr. Brian Barrett

 

I am not going insane (Even though many of you are doing your best :lol: )

 

- B -

[drbvac]

Ha: See there can be information and levity without making someone look dumb (even though they are!) NO PHOTOCOPIES from me anyone they are still in print and under copyright law - whats wrong with u

[undermilkwood]

awww shucks

 

 

 

Joe

[Jean]

Simon my friend,

 

We discussed privately the topic over, so fare well, will keep in contact via private e-mail.

 

I must confess I have witnessed so rude posts, harsh, I have several time reported them to the Moderators.

 

Harshness and rudeness are easy but have no place in a Forum.

 

I have an example : Darcy. I have been in contact with him from time to time for afew years now. I have seen him giving up a forum for the same reasons.

 

I had a discussion with him several weeks ago about one of his post, he told me he re wrote it 8 times before submitting it just to keep factual and not be hars and rude towards one of the so said expert.

 

I am not an expert and will never be, life is too short too focus on one topic and let pass others as much interesting.

 

Conclusion : People harsh and rude should have been spanked a lot more by their mothers when young just to learn how to behave

[Rich T]

3. In defence of those more knowlegable people it must be very frustrating to be presented with the same questions about the same subject time and again.

 

If they don't like the question or it frustrates them, ignore it and move on to whatever floats their boat! Why do they bother to answer, if it is so frustrating? Plenty of polite knowledgeable people on the board are only to happy to help, and less knowledgeable people are only to happy to try to help too, as a way to increase their own personal education. The elitists should let it go and only answer the elite postings!!

 

paulb wrote:

Beginners should not use the board as a lazy short cut in place of study.

 

Correct Paul..... they should use the board as an equal to gain knowledge as well as other websites and books. They should certainly not be shot down for trying to gain some knowledge from an easily accessible medium.

 

Hello all, I am not here much these days as well, as I am busy off with my own forum and a zillion other things in my life. I think what Paul has said here though is very common on all forums and the two go hand in hand. And I agree also with Sencho's rebuttals. I have seen Simon's frustrations before on this forum, while Brian has been running it, while I was running it and probably while Rich Stein was running it and I am, sure it happens on other forums as well, in fact I know it has on other Nihonto related forums. It will probably continue to happen for many years to come.

 

I know friends who are still active members here that have expressed these very same things to me, and I have felt them myself also in the past. That many folk just breeze in, say what is this ?, what's it worth ? is worse, and then breeze out, never to be heard of or seen again except for maybe an Ebay sale that turns up a week later. Many many of these without as little as a thank you.

 

[edit] At the other end of the scale are people who answer simple questions with such authority and then offer nothing else (Am I guilty of this ??? ) but perhaps what is also as bad, is that no one questions that. Why not ask..... Why did you say that, can you offer more support to those comments please ? I think this road is a two way street. Perhaps some who offer bits of information are waiting for some cogs to start turning.

 

Then there are many just trying to make a quick buck in this field, the razzel dazzel of buy and sell, and probably many of those will ripp off unsuspecting newbies without remorse or hesitation, some armed with the information obtained here or in other forums. And I think also it is inevitable that when you have such a large open forum of mixed minds, nationalities, levels of knowledge and pretty much a free range to write whatever you like, you will have people who come to logger heads more often and not. I am surprised by the amount this happens here, which is to say not that much at all. This must speak volumes about Brian's efforts here.

 

I am probably more than likely one of the types Simon is referring to, making fleeting visits once in a blue moon and attacking some poor collectors fittings piece as being average or whatever. The fact is I decided long ago there is nothing like the cold hard truth to make me realize what it was to be a collector. Sorry if I stood on anyones sensibilities, but if you are going out buying art, then there are bound to be people who will not think much of it, and tell you so. As long as they are polite, then that's fine by me. I would have hated to had my upbringing sugar coated.

 

These types of forums give much joy and infuriation to many and all. For example, I personally cannot stand all these waving hands and flags graphics and stay away from forums that use them with a passion, such a waste of energy. These are the sorts of things forum operators have to deal with, it is usually a thankless job.

 

Again, well done Brian.

 

regards

 

Richard Turner

[Guest reinhard]

The fact is I decided long ago there is nothing like the cold hard truth to make me realize what it was to be a collector.

 

I wasted a lot of time and money before coming to the same decision.

 

reinhard

[b.hennick]

A good friend of mine long ago told me that sword collectors need two things

"a thick skin and a thicker wallet". He has been proved correct more times than I can remember.

One always has the option of not reading posts of a particular individual.

I would like to thank Brian and the moderators for the fine job they are doing. When posts stray far from the listed topic things are brought back on track.

I have been collecting samurai swords since 1976. I continue to learn and study. I learn many many things from this bulletin board. Keith Larson's thoughts on yokote lines as a recent example - good information, well thought out. I have spent more on books than a beginning collector spends on his first couple of swords. I think that there is a place for books, for the Internet but most of all hands on study is necessary to make progress with Japanese swords. There is a sword show May 2-4 in Chicago. If you come to that show you will see at least 1,000 swords. There will be at least 10 outstanding swords and another 90 good blades. As you become better known you will get to see more or the top swords. I have 40 years of martial arts experience as well. It is the same there. You may be taught a form, but to learn the true gems in the kata (form) you need to put in the time and effort. They do not show beginners all of the applications of the form.

Simon I hope that you take this discussion as both a validation of your thoughts and a way of staying on.

I am a high school science teacher. I have learned that you can play with the nice kids and leave the bullies to play with each other.

BTW - drop by my table in Chicago and introduce yourself. Not everyone uses a face as their avitar.

[Bungo]

" drop by my table in Chicago and introduce yourself. Not everyone uses a face as their avitar."

 

that's because few people have thick skin like yours............

or half as breathtakingly handsome.

Take your pick, latter means you get a " good deal " off barry.

 

milt

[Walter]

Hmmm... Insulting or rude answers, bashing... etc.- I dare to think that's the problem of every single Forum (doesn't matter the subject).

Each Forum starts with group of nice, helpful people with great passion of collecting some stuff, willing to help the newbie’s and of course, later, more people join the gang.

With time some topics getting hot and some Members starts to disagree with others in nasty, arrogant way, ignoring the very basic rule of the civilized, public discussion:

"We agree to disagree".

This is the straight way to lose some most valuable Members - some of them will come back in the future (which is really great), some not (which is very sad).

I've been and still participate in many Forums (WW2 history, cats, tarantulas...don't laugh..., European edged weapons, photography...you name it) and believe me, I can see the same problems everywhere.

I'm rather new to this Forum, but so far I can say the NMB is the group of nicest and most helpful people I've ever met.

Most probably it's because of the fact that people interested in Nihonto - not really for the $$$ value, but for the artistic reason have no choice but to switch somehow their minds to Japanese way of thinking, where politeness (even if they want to be rude deliberately) require the polite way of expression.

Brian and Stephen are doing really great job for which I want to thank them.

I'd like to thank also to Mr. Barry Hennick for helping me to find my very first, GREAT katana!

He is a great example of very knowledgeable person willing to help a "regular Joe" with starting the hobby.

A real Sensei (well ...he's a science Sensei anyway...)

 

I hope, no one will leave this great Forum and we can still discuss all (even hottest) topics with clear mind without the "elitism" syndrome.

 

PS - please forgive me my "untrained" English.

[Bugyotsuji]

The Patience of Job

 

There is a Habaki maker near here who holds the classes at our NBTHK study group. He is well versed in swords and how to read them. He is well known and well respected, but I am always astonished at how much patience he has with just anybody who approaches and starts asking him questions. In public, when people recognize him, that very moment seems to be a chance for them to grab him and start on whatever it is that's been niggling them. He never seems to complain, but sometimes he looks tired. I think I would lose my patience and fall silent well before him.

[Stephen]

So there you have it Simon, no need to go, take a break have a good stiff drink, and let all this rubbish roll off you shouldres, every board has em but hate to see ya go over such small thing in life. If you have to for being here. Your a great bloke...is that sp right?

[undermilkwood]

Hi Simon.

 

I'm very new to this forum and have only been studying swords for a few years (I haven't got a thick wallet so I can't collect right now) the general rule I guess with all people is that you take everything with a pinch of salt. I hope none of my posts fell into the "newbie trying to take a short cut to knowledge" but I've been building my library for a while now and books as everyone knows are quite expensive. If it's not in my library or on the net then this forum is a truly fantastic resource.

 

So we don't want to be losing anyone to differences in opinion or clashes of personality. I don't know many of you on this forum but I read alot of your posts regularly and I get to know the individual "styles" of your posts. You ALL bring some unique angle and help fill out the picture. SO.........don't go!!!

 

All the best y'all

 

Joe

[Guest Simon Rowson]

Many, many thanks to everyone who responded to this final thread of mine - and to the large number of people who sent me PM's of support and agreement (I have replied to you all privately and given my e-mail address to those who requested it).

 

I can't actually figure a way to shut down my NMB account (I'm a complete tecno-moron) so I guess that's Brian's perogative in due course. Therefore, I will simply disappear back into the æther and cancel all my topic notifications and the PM function as of today.

 

I wish the NMB and it's members the very best of luck. As stated before, Brian does a great job in an often difficult role and he is always ably assisted by Stephen. I'll miss a lot of the great personalities who frequent this site but probably not the more, shall we say, caustic individuals who prompted my decision to leave.

 

All the best guys - hope one of you finds the Honjo Masamune (but send it to shinsa before posting it on the board or you'll be told "IT'S FAKE" before your fingers have left the keyboard! )

 

Sayonara,

Simon

 

PS: RichT wrote:

I am probably more than likely one of the types Simon is referring to

Nah, Richard - you give the "cold hard truth" certainly but you don't do it in order to make someone look ignorant or mediocre. There's a big difference.

[Brian]

As I explained to Simon via pm, there is no need to delete an account. If anyone doesn't want to read or post, then simply don't read or post? Perhaps in the future things improve and you wish to post something..or someone makes an offer you can't refuse? Seems kinda pointless to me to deregister. There are lots of forums I once joined and now don't visit anymore. This is the internet.

I think that when someone pushes for an account to be deleted instead of just going dormant, then it is more likely they are only trying to prove a point or make a statement, which does seem a little umm..er.. yeah.

Many people have given you good reasons to stay, and thanks to all those who commented, whether good or bad. I have addressed a lot of it via pm's and emails a while ago, and have seen positive changes. Sometimes we just need to learn to have a thick skin, and accept that some will be blunt when telling the truth. It doesn't help anyone's education when we are all afraid to call junk, junk. However I have already addressed the issue of politely telling someone that, and backing it up with an explanation. Rudeness is not tolerated here. If you see it, report it! Bluntness is a fine line, so if you are going to be blunt, then I do expect an explanation of why you are saying that. There are far too many good posts and topics here to let a tiny percentage get to me. Isn't it human nature that we coast through the good stuff, and only climb on the soap box when we see something bad.

Oh well..I tried, so in line with Simon's wishes, I will deactivate the account. All the best Simon, wish you well.

 

Brian

[Brian]

All,

 

Simon asked me to to please ask those that he sent his email address to, and who haven't been corresponding with him, to please drop him an email. He didn't get all of your email addresses on record. Those applicable should have his email address. If anyone else wishes to get hold of him, you can let me know and I'll forward any requests.

 

Thanks,

Brian