Chokutô Sword?

[Jean]

[Brian]

It could be genuine....there is some evidence of the layering and flaking rust i would expect to see.
But it is impossible to know for sure if it is or isn't without professional personal examination.
Therefore if you are showing for interest, I am happy to look and wonder. But there is not more that can come of this post besides guessing.
I hope it is real...but I think values on real ones are not what would be expected. They are archaeological artifacts rather than swords. But I still wouldn't mind owning one.

[Gakusee]

Alex

From your lengthy response about the owner of that blade and how he died and was buried, it is not clear whether you are trying to claim you know the provenance of the blade, participated in the excavation or what?

Interesting artefact by all means and it does seem old to me but would need spectrography in my view to analyse properly. Oxford Instruments or Nikon or KM or Canon scientific tools and the like.

[Geinz]

 

Gakusee ну коль  вы даже переводите. Мечь  оригинальный, мнение публики о его подлинности мне абсолютно не интересно. 

 

[Marius]

May I suggest that the admins close this thread? It seems to be going nowhere....

[Stephen]

 

 

The original sword, the public's opinion of its authenticity is absolutely not interesting to me. 

 

then why post it? setting it up to sell?

[Peter Bleed]

I follow this thread with interest. Indeed, I do NOT think anything we have looked at is "Japanese" BUT, I am sure that it MAY be relevant to the origins and development of Japanese swords. Japanese swords were not developed in isolation. They were developed in the context of East Asian Iron working. I am not surprised that swords made on the northern border of "China" would look like the blades we call "Chokoto."  I am also sure that Russia is full of amazing materials - including archaeological swords. PLEASE show them to us!. We also need access to publications on these items.

Peter

Я с интересом слежу за этой веткой. Действительно, я НЕ думаю, что все, что мы смотрели, это «японский», но я уверен, что МОЖЕТ быть уместным по происхождению и развитию японских мечей. Японские мечи не были разработаны изолированно. Они были разработаны в контексте восточноазиатских железных работ. Я не удивлен, что мечи, сделанные на северной границе «Китая», будут похожи на лезвия, которые мы называем «Чокото». Я также уверен, что Россия полна удивительных материалов, в том числе археологических мечей. ПОЖАЛУЙСТА, покажите их нам !. Нам также необходим доступ к публикациям по этим вопросам.

[Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini]

Who thinks anything about this sword? The sword was found several years ago. The sword is roughly 1200 years old

 

Get in touch with Boris Markhasin using his profile : http://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/user/1111-bmarkhasin/. He has a vast knowledge of the items you show and speaks your Language. He has a forum too but get in touch with him first. 

 

​If somebody can translate my post in russian God bless.

[vajo]

Алекс, почему бы тебе не отполировать окно? Тогда вы увидите, есть ли у Хады и Хамона.

 

Alex why you dont let polish a window, to see if it has hada and a hamon?

[lonely panet]

radio carbon dating should be easily done within the European continent. plenty of radio carbon dating facilities to help fin the date.

 

http://www.radiocarbon.eu/carbon-dating-blog/

[PNSSHOGUN]

Carbon dating is 100% the way to go on things like this.

[Geinz]

 

Peter Bleed  Peter, you are absolutely right. We think just like you. the whole problem is that the sword was found in the territory of the former state of Balhae destroyed in the early 10th century. It was very good friends and traded with Japan, goods and people went. But to this state the sword does not have any relation, their swords were different, here their sword found on the field is actively sprinkled with fertilizers.

[Stephen]

Now that sword looks 1200 years old ...

[Geinz]

Stephen  Especially for you, how can the thousand-year-old swords look from the earth. this sword was found in the Partizansky district of the Primorye Territory by archaeologists

[TheGermanBastard]

Well, while I am no expert I am familiar with archeological relics. I think the sword can be well legit. I am just amazed at how low they seem to sell even in this condition!? I thought that they would still be in the thousands ...

[b.hennick]

A couple of years ago one was for sale at the Tampa show. It did not sell. If I remember correctly the price dropped to $500. I do not collect archeological items and I guess that no one else did at the show.

[vajo]

Balhae is China? Maybe its more a chinese sword. Why you think it must be Japanese?

 

Gainz these are all archeologist pieces. I dont know how you get these but i dont think it is good to store them outside a museum without science advise. If they come from a legal source they have a less value.

[Geinz]

vajo  

no it's not China, in Europe they used to write in Latin and listened to pope, but that did not mean that Europe is Rome. then what I think I wrote above  and completely agree with Peter. I just showed a sword that looks like a Japanese. or rather early Japanese are like it.

[vajo]

Geinz today North Korea?

 

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b6/Balhae-Territory_in_830.JPG

[Dave R]

Carbon dating is 100% the way to go on things like this.

 

 For carbon dating there needs to be a decent amount of carbon to be tested! The carbon in steel doesn't count.

[lonely panet]

that's why I mentioned RADIO carbon dating, heres a basic link for the science guys

easy done with advances in new tech, and you can also apparently radio carbon date rust too!

http://www.tms.org/pubs/journals/JOM/0305/Cook-0305.html

[Gakusee]

Practically speaking - where can radiocarbon testing be done commercially (in Europe and US) and how much does it cost? If only at academic (bespoke, expensive) level just yet, then it will remain academic.

[Stephen]

Id visit a local university, do a cold call to proper dept. 

[vajo]

Michael here some price list for a german institute.

 

https://www.leibniz.uni-kiel.de/de/ams-14c-labor/preise-und-zeiten

 

Standarddatierung (+/-35 Jahre für rezente Proben) 3 - 5 Monate € 350 Höhere Genauigkeit (+/- 25 Jahre für rezente Proben, Doppelmessung) € 450

Datierung der organischen Probe und der extrahierten Huminsäure

(bei Sedimenten empfohlen)

€ 500

Aufschläge für aufwendige Probenaufbereitungen:

Kollagenextraktion aus Knochen inkl. Bestimmung des Kollagengehaltes € 50 Zelluloseextraktion € 50 Aufbereitung von Proben mit Kohlenstoffgehalten von 0,1% und geringer € 80 Lösungsmittelextraktion € 35

Preisreduktion für bereits aufbereitete Proben:

Gereinigte Pollen* € 50 Reines CO2** € 75 Graphit** € 170
 

[Gakusee]

Thanks so much for the pricing, Chris! Actually it turns out it is cheaper than I thought and not that far off a shinsa fee! It is definitely worth considering for higher-value swords, where there is a debate as to generations for example or even period.

I just need to find some organisation in the U.K. which might undertake it commercially (not necessarily for research), and will also do it noninvasively and nondestructively.

[Stefan]

It is  not  so expensive.

http://www.cez-archaeometrie.de/?p=434

 

http://www.cez-archaeometrie.de/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/Preisliste_CEZA.pdf

[Kanenaga]

Boris Markhasin has an interesting and scholarly article entitled Investigation of a Chokuto Tachi in the KTK 7th annual exhibition catalog, pages 83-88, for those who may have a copy. The tachi in qustion is thought to have been retrieved from lake Biwa. 

 

Boris had Ted Tenold polish another of his archaic blades, and you could clearly see hada and hamon in places.