Give Back To Caesar What Belongs To Caesar

[Surfson]

Just goes to show you - look carefully at the photo in the papers!  It really is not well hidden that the "hamon" has been altered from the blade that was papered.  Thanks for the lesson on this Jean (and Darcy).

[Alan F]

  On 1/26/2018 at 4:45 PM, Jean said:

The question is : what are the characteristics of a Yamato blade: high shinogi, masame, and a SUGUHA Hamon. Naotane would never have made a big midare hamon.

 

 

I am a bit perplexed by the title of this thread. Is it not derived from Matthew 22:21 (I quote the King James version)  ...Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's.

 

It is a somewhat ambiguous passage that has been open to varying interpretations. By all means pay your taxes to Caesar, if you must, but reserve your soul (or your devotion) for God. That's just one interpretation. Don't worry, I'm not a bible thumper. Atheist, in fact.

 

So Naotone might not have made a notare or midare hamon if he was aiming to copy a Yamashiro blade, but perhaps this one on Aoi Art was intended to imitate a Soshu blade. He was supposedly familiar with all traditions. 

 

 

If the blade was altered (by polish or whatever) after the NBTHK papers were issued, then surely they don't say anything about the blade being sai ha (retempered). That's just an assumption. 

Unfortunately the nakago photos on the certificate are just that: nakago photos. They do not include the rest of the blade and are not taken so as to highlight the hamon. No denying it looks different though. I would tend to go with Darcy's first scenario.

 

This also wouldn't be the first time I have seen horimono that pass through into the hamon. Of course it could have been added later. Does it devalue the blade? Not so sure.

 

By the way, the blade in the second photo is priced similarly to Aoi Art's Naotane.

 

Alan

[Ken-Hawaii]

Alan, running horimono through the hamon is a particularly bad idea. The hardness of the steel is incredibly different, so maintaining the exact same style is difficult, to say the least.

[Surfson]

I have a funny feeling that that is not the hamon but rather some kind of cloudiness added by a polisher after the blade papered.  I don't really see a mizukage either, so I'm not sure that it has been retempered.  Whatever, it is, in my opinion, adorned by a rather ugly horimono.  Sort of like Mike Tyson's tattoo.  

[Kanenaga]

I won't be surprised if Brian disallows any more discussion on this topic, but I find this a tremendously educational thread. I probably should have my head examined for jumping in here, but I for one would prefer that Darcy's comments don't squelch further contributions.  I think that some of the negative comments about this blade are subject to alternative interpretations, so I'll challenge some of what has been said:

 

1.  I don't see this hamon as "wild." It's suguha ko-notare, and not that different from other hamons in Yamato tradition. It's the hadori that's wild.

 

2.  The dragon toes do extend into the true hamon, as shown in the angled photos.  This means that the horimono were applied prior to tempering, since it is generally understood that the true hamon is too hard for carving. This would seem to give credence to the "retempering" theory, but is equally consistent with the horimono (quality criticisms aside) as ubu-bori.

 

3.  Then this blade with the florid notare hamon that was invisible with a fake suguba hamon on it went to the NBTHK who gave it Tokubetsu Hozon in spite of this...  Hard to accept.  The NBTHK shinsa members know how to look at a hamon.

 

4.  Looking at the face-on photo in the kanteisho, all we see is hadori.  We cannot see the true hamon.  

 

5.  Retempering is a big deal, with risks like hagiri.  I doubt it is done except to correct fatal flaws. This blade did not have fatal flaws or it would not have passed shinsa.

 

6.  A simple explanation for the change in the blade's appearance is that since the shinsa is that it has been "pimped up" with a new, wilder kessho finish, to enhance marketability. I suspect this is a frequent occurrence, and does not alter the fundamental charactersitics of the blade. In this case -- to the credit of this list -- the change has only served to raise concerns among the "wary."  A marketing strategy gone bad?

 

 

Anyway, those are just my thoughts. Flame away -- or just ignore my rantings.

[Markus]

Adding to Brian's comment: ... and if you are seriously considering buying something for $15k, can't be wrong to have someone translate the native Japanese description for let's say 50 bucks, *cough, cough*

[Guest Rayhan]

The sword is not retempered but as many here pointed out, was simply polished after TH shinsa. Nothing to suggest retemper either as there is no warping or altering of the steels dimensions. Also, the swords back up and fully explained.

[Vermithrax16]

Updated listing, 

http://www.sword-auction.jp/en/content/as16570%E8%84%87%E5%B7%AE-%E8%84%87%E5%B7%AE%EF%BC%9A%E5%A4%A7%E6%85%B6%E7%9B%B4%E8%83%A4%EF%BC%88%E8%8A%B1%E6%8A%BC%EF%BC%89-wakizashi-taikei-naotane

[Brian]

Agree, and i think this is the most plausible explanation. If no-one has anything relevant to add, I'd like to lock this.