opinions on a shakudo tsuba sought

[Ford Hallam]

I was wondering if the membership here might have some thoughts about this tsuba.

 

Any and all opinions welcome

 

 

thanks, Ford

 

and it's not one of mine either

[AZPhil]

I know Wow wasn't what you meant.........

But WOW that is Beautiful!

 

PS:Awesome website

Thanks!

Phil

[Jean]

Hi Ford,

 

I have seen this kind of tsuba months ago, it was part of a set of fitting - mitokoromono (Tsuba/menuki/FK) on Fred Weissberg website

 

Some of NMB members could remember it

[John A Stuart]

Nice. Kenjo tsuba. Someone has talent. John

[Brian]

Look closely at everything, and not just the first impression.

In this game, first impressions aren't usually the ones that count.

 

Brian

 

Ps - My...what a happy looking horse.

[docliss]

I am obviously very impressed by Ford’s Hikone-bori tsuba, but why has John labelled it a ‘KenjÅ tsuba’? He is not using this term in its narrower sense (from the shop of JÅ«ichiya in KyÅto in the mid-1600s) surely. Perhaps he means simply ‘given as a gift’, but what basis has he for saying this, apart from the fact that anybody would obviously be delighted to receive it?

 

The decorative nature of the sekigane; the absence of any noticeable sign of wear; and the extension of the tachi blade onto the seppa-dai might all, perhaps, suggest late Edo or Meiji work that was never intended for mounting. ? C19 Mito work.

 

Thank you, Ford, for posting it.

 

John L.

[John A Stuart]

Hi John, "work that was never intended for mounting" In that sense I used the word kenjo. John

[Brian]

Hi John(s)

 

Taken from http://home.earthlink.net/~jggilbert/glossary.htm :

Kenjo: a generic heavily decorated style of tsuba made for giving as a gift

 

Sea appears a little..umm..er.... frothy?

 

Brian

[Ford Hallam]

hmmm....the Good Doctor is closest...getting warmer8)

 

as Brian suggests, first impressions can be deceiving. Is this really as good as it first appears?

[Jean]

Could it be a Chinese fake?

[Bungo]

the tachi onto the seppa dai, granted it does not look high relief and may not interfere with the mounting, a Meiji era feature ?

Also I find all those " BB gun marks " distracting, what's with that ?

 

I like my fuchi better......

 

milt

[Bungo]

Ford,

may we have the flip side please........

 

milt

[Ford Hallam]

Sorry Milt, I don't have an image showing the reverse.

 

In my opinion this is another piece that seems to me to be made by a non-professional tsuba maker. An amateur work, and I'd go as far to suggest very much later than Meiji.

 

Admittedly, this is a very ambitious work. Whoever made it, and I think almost certainly Japanese, put a lot of time and effort into it.

 

Some of the "give-aways" to my eyes, have been noted already. The odd shaped seppa-dai, clearly never mounted on a sword, and those very odd "tagane mei" around the seki gane strike me as completely contrived.

 

The droplets of water around the crests of the waves are done in gold...the convention is silver, and in this case I get the impression our maker really got carried away with the dot inlay technique...it looks as though the horses are being shampooed .

 

That horses face is also just too funny for words...perhaps it got soap in it's eyes

 

The weird curve at the end of the sword bothers me more that the fact that it goes onto the seppa-dai. Is it conceivable that someone who's livelihood revolved around swords could make such a bad drawing of a blade? and why have such a focal point of the little warrior disappear like that? Low level makers typically used design books, they didn't try to design their own work at all. Clearly this is not designed by an accomplished artist nor made by a less skilful craftsman ( who would have used a professionally drawn design ) so who are we left with...and when could that person have been working? I keep finding that the answer in my mind is, an amateur working sometime post Taisho period, long past the time when "real" tsuba makers were still producing their wares, however "Meiji-fied" they might have been. :lol:

 

This tsuba does present quite a challenge in terms of being absolute about it's origin, I'll admit, but as you'll have guessed by now, I am trying to develop a "theory" about a particular group of tsuba that seem to me to be newcomers to the collecting scene.

 

I have not returned to the "Shigenori" tsuba yet, I will do so in a day or two, there I will try and add some more to my general premise. I'll also add another example of this "modan group" ( borrowing Milt's classification ).

 

and thanks for taking the time to read my "crazy ideas",

 

regards, Ford

[docliss]

This is, presumably, an image of a legend from the Wars of the Gempei, with Kajiwara Kagesue and Sasaki no ShirŠTakatsuna fording the Uji river. Kagesue rides Surusumi, one of Yoshitsune’s own horses, and Takatsune rides Ikezuki, belonging to Yoritomo. Takatsuna calls after Kagesue to tighten his horse’s girth which, holding his bow in his mouth, he does, thus being beaten to the opposite bank. The bow in the water in Ford’s image represents this incident. In most representations of this legend Ibezuki is depicted as being bay in colour, but I know of no reason for this convention.

 

Perhaps Brian is correct in his statement regarding ‘first impressions’, and the detail on Ford’s tsuba is not so good. By way of contrast, I have posted images of a mumei pair of Hamano fuchi-gashira depicting the same incident. Kagesue, on the kashira, is mounted on a wonderfully foreshortened horse. His bow in his mouth, he is seen to be tightening his girth with his left hand, his leg being turned out to facilitate this. Takasuna is shown in beautiful detail on the fuchi.

 

I must confess to being a little worried by what Ford tells us about this tsuba.

 

Regards, John L.

 

PS May I take issue with Ford over his statement that water drops are usually silver - surely this is not so?

[Brian]

I won't claim to have followed my own advice initially. On first impression, I also saw an impressive looking tsuba with lots of fancy details and looking quite well done.

I have a long chat with Ford about it, and am pleased he posted it, as I think it will provide an excellent discussion if the tsuba guys care to share their opinions.

As I started looking at the details closer after my chat with Ford, some glaring irregularities became apparent. The foam on the water is really overdone, and looks like the artist got carried away with the technique. The expression on the horse contains satire which I wasn't expecting on this work. The way the tachi encroaches on the seppa dai, while not impossible, seems a-typical and the shape isn't well done. The details overlapping onto the mimi seem excessive and overdone. The sekigane as pointed out seem to have been done unconventionally and look odd.

The artist obviously has Japanese knowledge and skill, but the way it all comes together seems to me to be contrary to the conventional aesthetic. It seems possible and even logical to me that this might be an experiment in technique by someone working much later than I originally thought.

I don't claim to be sure of my observations, but I am eager to hear opinions and more about this one. I really need to borrow a pair of artist's eyes for a while

 

Brian

[Bungo]

the tsuba theme is Yoshitsune retrieving the bow with Bankei at the back.

The f/k theme is that Uji river crossing competition thing........

 

milt

[John A Stuart]

Hi Ford, I have legimately made Edo period fittings that are more crudely made, in comparison to master works, that would be considered made by a professional artist, that is by a person who makes their primary living from making tousogu. That example you posted in another thread looked amateurish, but this one seems pretty good. I can pick out faults here and there but, gosh, I can't see this as an amateur's work. Must be a criteria thing. Not arguing, just wondering. John

[docliss]

Further to the images that I posted of the Hamano fuchi-gashira, are any of you eagle-eyed experts able to identify the tiny kanji that are engraved on the pommel of the horse on the kashira? I have enlarged and clarified them as well as I can, but they are very difficult to make out. Any suggestions ...?

 

With thanks, John.

[Guest reinhard]

The artist obviously has Japanese knowledge and skill, but the way it all comes together seems to me to be contrary to the conventional aesthetic.

 

The tsuba in question is far from traditional Japanese aesthetics and design. Actually it is a piece of crap, despite of any technical qualities. It is a non-Japanese approach of tuning things.

Once you have made old Japanese aesthetics part of your perception, you don't have to think twice and artificial contradictions will dissolve.

 

reinhard

[Guest reinhard]

Brian,

Sorry for the c-word; I must not use it anymore. What I meant was: This tsuba lacks elementary qualities; qualities traditional Japanese sense of beauty is associated with. This is particularly obvious when looking at the wave design. It doesn't look Japanese but Japanese-style. It has a western touch in general.

 

reinhard

[Brian]

Reinhard, I really don't mind people calling something crap as long as they elaborate on it and explain why, as you have done above.

What you said is exactly what I was trying diplomatically to say too. Seems to me the artist has knowledge of the Japanese history and what he is trying to portray, but not the knowledge to do it in the Japanese way of a master tosogu artist. He clearly knows the subject matter, and this hints to me that he might be a more modern (non classical) tsuba apprentice or hobbyist? I agree with you on the waves, they are stylish but not Japanese to my eyes. I hope we can get more input from others here, as this is a good topic for debate, and something we can all learn from hopefully.

 

Brian

[Curran]

Milt, Reinhard, Ford, etc...

 

Crazy tsuba that Ford posted. I thought it looks screaming modern. But are you sure it is Japanese? Not Italian, or product of one of two of the Americans currently pursuing such experiments in the USA? The two I have in mind have such an understanding of Japanese aesthetic that I strongly doubt them. More the wild stallion crazy horse, the oversized sword pommel, etc and a general roberto benigni exuberance made me wonder if it wasn't product of an EU lavoratore?

 

Curious. I hope Ford has a good answer. I look forward to his reply on the Shigenori (sp? I forget the signature) as I just thought that one late Edo or Meiji mutt hybrid vigor tsuba, whereas this 'modan' he posted is much more interesting.

 

Curran

[sencho]

 

That horses face is also just too funny for words...perhaps it got soap in it's eyes

 

regards, Ford

 

Or maybe just gritting it's teeth, as the cold water finally reached it's nether regions!

 

Cheers!

[remzy]

I waited a bit before commenting and it seem that i thought like most people here did.

The tsuba, while over saturated with details and quite overdone, is well crafted and i think that you would have to be extremely talented yourself to call this tsuba's craftmenship crappy, imho.

 

As for the tachi overlaping the seppa dai, at first i thought this was a naginata blade mounted as a sword, the shape is odd indeed.

 

So, who made this?

[theflyingdutchman]

Hi Everyone,

 

May I seek our esteemed members opinion of this Tsuba please? 

 

it's Shakudo, 7.2 x 7cm 

 

I thought this would be an appropriate place to post it due to the similarities to Ford's at the top of the thread. 

 

How old is it, is it Gimei etc? 

 

Thoughts on quality? Value? 

 

Cheers, Matthew

 

 

 

 

 

[zanilu]

Hi Mattew

 

I am probably wrong. But I try anyway.

 

I would say late Edo period Hikone Bori (i.e. Gimei). It seems to be above average compared most Hikone bori pieces but certainly not on the same level of Soten school masters works.

Probably not intended for use also since part of the figure protrudes into the seppa dai area!

 

That's my two cents opinion, better to wait for more experienced people...

 

Regards

Luca

[theflyingdutchman]

Hi Luca,

 

Thanks for your reply, much appreciated. 

 

Can you read what the signature says?

 

I am no expert so forgive me for my amateurism here, so far I've been able to decipher (with some help!) 

 

Mogarashi Nyudo Soten Sei - can anyone tell me if that translation is correct and does anyone have any information on this person? 

 

Specifically is the kanji for Mogarashi translated correctly and is this a place / village / city name or something else?

 

Regarding the decoration going into the Seppa Dai, I have seen this trait on mounted tsubas before, although rarely, so I don't think that automatically means it's a fake / copy / late piece not intended to be used. 

 

The size at 7cm would indicate a wakizashi tsuba perhaps for use by a Merchant?

 

All input is more than welcome! 

 

Thanks,

 

Matthew 

[theflyingdutchman]

In terms of what it depicts, could it be this?  The Battle of Dan-no-ura? April 25th, 1185

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Dan-no-ura

 

 

To this day, the Heike Crabs found in the Straits of Shimonoseki are considered by theJapanese to hold the spirits of the Taira warriors. The Taira attempted to toss the imperial regalia off the ship but only managed to get the sword and jewel into the water before the ship holding the regalia was captured. ^[5]

The jewel was recovered by divers; many presume the sword to have been lost at this time, though it is officially said to have been recovered and enshrined at Atsuta Shrine.

This decisive defeat of the Taira forces led to the end of the Taira bid for control of Japan. Minamoto Yoritomo, the elder half-brother of Minamoto Yoshitsune, became the first Shogun, establishing his military government ('bakufu') in Kamakura. In this battle the Taira lost Taira Tomomori, Taira Noritsune, Taira Norimori, Taira Tsunemori, Taira Sukemori, Taira Arimori and Taira Yukimori, who were killed.