Tokubetsu Curiosity

[TheGermanBastard]

> . I have very similar Koshirae that is Hozon rated

 

Then the paper is maybe worth more than the Koshirae ... it makes absolutely no sense to submitt such a kind of Koshirae for papers.

 

It is like getting a paper for your 30 year old Golf saying this is an old Golf.

 

Look at the Fuchi / Kashira of the Koshirae in question. Onne of the poorer mass produced things of tourist quality.

 

> No one mentioned Juyo it was just a remark that no one knows what will happen.

 

Well , you said:

 

" This Waki in question in my heart o hearts I feel is a good candidate, I give it a thumbs up for a try on TH. In 200 years from now if in similar condition will it maybe pass Juyo, who knows."

 

I say, chances of this happening is 0.1% and I have reasoning why not. Or there will be hundred thousands of Juyo blades in 200 years.

 

You further emphasized that there were Juyo level Wkizashi. I asked which comparabel Shinto Juyo Wakizashi of that rank there is. But no reply.

 

So I put an end to this debate on my end. Believers need to believe.

[Guest Rayhan]

Here you go Luis, feel free not to comment though

 

https://www.aoijapan.net/wakizashi-inoue-shinkaikikumonenpo-3-nen-8-gatu-hi/

 

and look, with the correct spelling for Shinkai!

[Guest Rayhan]

Wait! 

 

https://www.aoijapan.net/wakizashi-joshu-jyu-kunihirokeicho-13-nen-8-gatsuhi/

 

ok

[TheGermanBastard]

Ray, my first comment is to re-read my posting and again come down to earth from Utopia or wherever you.. I said that even Sinkai and Kotetsu Wakizashis are NO sure bets on Juyo whilebeing two of the most highly regarded Shinto periode smiths. Tell me the ratio of TBH versus Juyo ranked blades for these smithes. The amount of TBH ranked blades will greatly outnumber the Juyo Wakizashis ... why? Because is just very rare for a Shinto periode Wakizashi to go Juyo WHILE we have probably larger numbers of Wakizasho by these smith then Daito.

 

But that was NOT my question. I repeat my question to your for the 3rd time and await your reply:

 

You further emphasized that there were Juyo level Wakizashis. I asked which compareabel Shinto Juyo Wakizashi of that rank (= Masanaga 3rd) there is? Hm?

[Guest Rayhan]

Luis

 

I am not next to a Zufu right now, maybe if some one with Zufu chimes in it will help. 

 

However here is a picture of my Hozon Koshirae attached (more for Eric)

 

I get where you're coming from, Juyo should be difficult 

 

[TheGermanBastard]

There is good Tsukaito on that Koshirae

[Ooitame]

Hi rayhan, thanks for the links. As for the koshirae I asked Aoi for their opinon on it. I will summarize what I remeber from my head what I was told, I could submit but was advised against as it would not really be economically worth it.

Interesting tsuba, hard to zoom and get a good look on this phone.

[Guest Rayhan]

Eric

 

I am glad you asked and got an answer. No harm in research.

 

Luis,

 

Actually one of the things that judges will not hold against you in Koshirae shinsa is changing of an Ito if need be, in fact you can find old ito in good condition to use too. New Saya is a no ofourse.

[Ooitame]

I have found Aoi to be honest on the dealings I am familiar with and should there be a mistake he has corrected sufficiently. I had three questions, but in this good back and forth may have been lost in the hozon sauce.

Jreid pointed out the burnishing marks and related those to the skill of the polisher, does he relate that as the lines are not straight as an arrow or other reason? 

Could the burnishing marks also be used to aid in confirming who the polisher was?

Also, can someone confirm this smith is ranked as ryo-wazamano?

[Guest Rayhan]

Eric

 

Last post and i'm out to work on the jet lag - from what Markus Sesko says in his "Swordsmiths of Japan" book is 1st generation is Ryo-Wazamono. Usually if there is a Wazamono rating it would be referenced by Aoi as it is a selling point for some collectors and Jo-saku. 3rd gen is Chu Saku and no mention of sharpness rating, ask the team at Aoi and you should get an answer.

 

Polishing marks follow this http://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/24278-polisher-marks-under-the-habaki/ 

 

if you search on the board you generally find it has all been discussed before. 

 

Peace and Happy New year all

[Ooitame]

Hi Rayhan, I was using https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Wazamono#cite_note-nagayama-2for a name match, I see miyoshi is missing thanks for the clarification.

Interesting link that leads to more links, I see this question will need more research. Happy new year and enjoy the catch up sleep!

[Gakusee]

Luis

As previously mentioned - only two Masanagas at Juyo level and these two are two Nidai katanas over 70cm in length but you guys seem too busy to argue with each other to notice.

 

In fact, there are around 50 wakizashi at Juyo level, dating to the 1700s or younger. So, not that many overall. Predominantly Kiyomaro, Naotane, Masashige, Masahide, Masayuki.

 

But this thread is digressing a bit. If an owner wants to submit a blade for a TH certificate, of course they could, if they have the means and desire to do it. One could argue that with the tightened TH criteria, such a level indicates higher worthiness of preservation on average (as we know, some great blades stay at Hozon as owners only wanted to ensure authenticity and veracity of a signature but the quality and maker could clearly be topmost)

 

Will it increase the economic value for a mid-range sword? Possibly/ probably not, but not everyone is after economic appreciation.

 

Regarding the ratings:

 

- Oshu Masanaga 奥州政長 is ryo wazamono

- Bitchū no Daijō Masanaga (備中大椽正永) is wazamono

Neither of these is your guy (sandai Masanaga)

I am with Ray on this.

[TheGermanBastard]

Hello Michael,

 

thank you for the provided data. As I said before it is just very hard for a Waki in general and especially Muromachi and later to go Juyo - and we are talking about a Wakizashi here. We must understand that the number of Wkizashi increased tremendously during Shinto Periode.

 

I better refrain from making anymore remakrs about the two Koshiraes shown in this topic and their potential "need" for papers.

 

The question I ask is, if one is NOT after economic appreciation, then what is the purpose of upgrading a blade from Hozon to TBH? And when look at the economic appreciation, does it make sense on an avergae blade?? That is why I offered the question to think about the benefit of this quest given an average blade ...

 

I think the topic starter seems to admire wishfull thinking. I do wish him the very best and that all his wishes may come true.

[Vermithrax16]

I would love to see a Juyo pass/fail listing for even one session. I will contact Markus and see if I can get one, would be fun to see.

[Ooitame]

Hello Michael, the research is very much appreciated, thank you! You are correct, I am not one who necessarily seeks monetary gain from this blade. Rather, the paper would be to aid in appreciation and enjoyment of the blade.

Well... I have learned never say never, and should I ever need to sell it I suppose it definitely helps.

 

Hello Luis, I admitted in my post my wishful thinking (2.5). However, I do realize this and why I started the post as to get more opinions on the subject. Thank you for the best wishes.

 

Hello Jean, my sincere apologizes, I completely missed your post earlier. I am having trouble locating this thread, I have tried a word search as well as using a member search, the member search for Darcy brought 1 result but when I click for the posts and topics I can not see it. If possible, could you please provide a link

[Jean]

Eric,

 

Read this carefully

 

https://www.nihonto.ca/ha/?p=540

[Ooitame]

Hi Jean, thank you for the link. That is indeed a very good reference and some of those very points were discussed here; interesting to see in fact. Quite a complex skill to acquire for someone like myself that is just starting. With due dilligance and time I suppose...

Also thank you and your team for what is one of the better forums I have come across.

[Jussi Ekholm]

You have a nice signed and dated wakizashi, from a decent smith so it will be nice collectable piece. However unfortunately in my opinion it will just be a nice sword nothing too remarkable historically but I don't focus this era so I don't know much about these.

 

To be honest if you are sending it to Hozon already you might as well send it to Tokubetsu Hozon too, I mean it is just 10,000 Yen if it fails it, and 30,000 Yen if it passes and you'll have TH papers. As the sword seems to be in Japan and the dealer will act as an agent for you go for it. It would be much more money if you decided to give it a go at later time.

 

Here is the but... if it would make huge financial gain to get higher papers I'd bet Aoi would have tried papering it already. After all they are in the business of making profit on their sales. I'd say the "market price" for the item might be pretty much the same with Hozon - Tokubetsu Hozon or even without papers.

[vajo]

The truth is. All Japanese dealers know what they have.

[Stephen]

Chris you must reduce All to Most....lol

[Alex A]

Especially Ebayers  

[TheGermanBastard]

 

 

Here is the but... if it would make huge financial gain to get higher papers I'd bet Aoi would have tried papering it already. After all they are in the business of making profit on their sales. I'd say the "market price" for the item might be pretty much the same with Hozon - Tokubetsu Hozon or even without papers.

 

Well, summed up Jussi. That is what I tried to explain to the buyer but failed ...

[TheGermanBastard]

As far as I understand, in order to pass tokubetsu hozon, the blade needs to be an above average work along with all of the general requirements. This is a nice blade, but to be honest, I see the hada has some somewhat slag-ish areas and the polish is good, but also -average. The polishers overall skill is detected by his burnishing marks under the habaki. Could affect the outcome. imo.

 

You might wish to get the blade re-polished by a highly rated polisher. This could reveal the full quality of the sword for your appreciation and possibly grant better Shinsa results.

[Ooitame]

Hello Luis, I would like to have a great togishi go to town on this item. However, funds are all but depleted for this item. This sword will have to fight as it stands now through shinsa. Hopefully the swords character and spirit prevail and I can use the remaining funds on possible sayagaki. 

 

Hi Jussi, thank you, I agree this blade looks to be a good starting point for my daisho and/or collection. Although the koshirae will be hard to pair should it become part of a set. You maybe correct about market price. However, I am not sure Aoi would go to paper a sword just to up the price. He seems knowledgeable as to what he has and their value. Now does oragami make an item more valuable yes and no, but it sure makes them easier to sell. 

[Guest Rayhan]

Hi Eric

 

Kindly ignore calls to further polish, the more material removed the worse it fares in Shinsa especially for a young sword. 

 

It is good as it is. 

[TheGermanBastard]

Hi Eric

 

Kindly ignore calls to further polish, the more material removed the worse it fares in Shinsa especially for a young sword. 

 

It is good as it is. 

 

The better the quality of the polish, the better a blade performs at Shinsa. That is a no brainer.

[vajo]

The sayagaki will be a nice add for a later buyer, but it will not help you to earn more money. For me it looks you have bought it to trade. Thats a hard road because AOI put every sell in its online museum.

[Ooitame]

Hi Chris, I can understand why some would think this way. However, I did not buy to trade. This is my first nihonto and I intend to keep for quite some time and enjoy. I am also using this blade as a learning experience. I would like to learn as much as possible not just about this blade and smith, but nihonto in general and what makes a great sword.

As a matter of fact, as I write this sentance I am sitting between and studying Uda Kunifusa and a 2nd gen kinimichi. Eventually a Masanori cutting test will arrive, all three previously listed are not mine and the owner is gratious enough to let me handle and study these. When my blade arrives I can compare all in hand and get very good hands on learning. I am paying the extra for shinsa, shirasaya, tsunagi, and habaki, to ensure enjoyment, appreciation, and longevity.

If I were to just flip it for a few extra dollars, I would only consider hozon wait a little bit and then flip. Even with Aoi's record, should I ever need to sell, I do not see why I would have an issue at a later date. Of course I am a newbie and could be wrong as I have  no experience with the sellers aspect.

I am always trying to learn from those with more experience, what makes you feel trading would be harder?

[TheGermanBastard]

You should get the NTHK papers

[Ooitame]

Hello all,

 

My sincere thanks for your time, thoughts and advice. 

You have given me much to consider. I will be sure to let you all know the results of shinsa at which ever level I submit.

 

Thank you,

Eric