Your Verdict About This Tsuba Please

[Robin]

Hello guys,

 

This was my first tsuba and I'm not sure about it.

 

77mm,  71mm, 4mm. Iron.

 

  

 

I hope it's at least Japanese rust. When it is...any information about it will be appreciated.

When it isn't it's a newbie lesson learned.

 

Thanks,

 

Robin

 

 

[vfox]

Hi Robin,

 

I am a newbie myself so I am not in a position to pass judgement on this tsuba.

 

However, in my humble opinion it's a beautiful piece and I would be glad to own it.

 

Best Regards,

Jay

[Curran]

Late Choshu?

 

Seems perfectly fine to me. Better than many beginners first tsuba.

The Choshu school breaks down into several sub schools as the Edo period progressed.

Without verifying which subschool with the Choshu book, one of the subschools did produce more 'western art perspective' realistic nature design tsuba on what felt like battleship hull grey iron.

 

On tsuba of that sort, I'd expect rust to be young to almost non existent.

The one I previously owned of that realistic sort, was almost pristine except a few small old spittle spots that needed cleaned.

 

I sold an exceptionally nice signed sukashi Choshu to one of our fellow forum members. I regret that a bit, as I should have kept at least one Choshu.

At least it went to the right person!

[Robin]

Thank you so much.

 

I think the realistic (lotus flowers?) design is what made me worry, the lack of sekigane and tagane ato didn't help either.

I presume this is a cast tsuba? Since it was covered with old wax, oil or god knows what I boiled it in water.

It's clean now and the rust seems superficial only, but I better leave it as it is I guess.

 

Thanks again,

 

Robin

[Brian]

No..not cast. A genuine late Edo piece as Curran says.
Don't leave rust on it. Oil and wipe, to stabilize any rust. Nothing abrasive...but don't let red rust remain.

[Ford Hallam]

Sorry to be the nay-sayer but to my eyes this looks like a fairly modern piece. It's clearly emulating one of the Choshu groups in style, as Curran pointed out,  but it's not the work of a professional Edo period tsuba-ko in my opinion.

 

The design itself is interesting for the fact that it isn't really typical for the Choshu group the actual technique is attempting to copy. The design feels more like something we see on certain types of Heian-jo brass inlay works.  

[Brian]

I always defer to Ford, and would go with his opinion over mine
Ford..construction method? Cast or carved? I note the irregularity in the seppa dai now.

[Ford Hallam]

Hi Brian

 

it's carved, but if you the look at the actual technical skill in evidence you might begin to notice many awkward spots and 'missteps'.  The nakago-ana itself, is poorly shaped too.

Overall it's a fair attempt at classical work using traditional tools. I see evident of the maker having used a hisage ( a scraper) to smooth the craved surface. In the stems and tendrils, in a few spots there are little ripples left, this tells me the maker wasn't completely proficient in the hisage's use. Used heavy-handedly it will leave chatter marks, those ripples I see.

[Curran]

Well, Ford does go by the self title of "Heretic".

Before anyone gets testy, that is meant as a friendly joke. I tend to like most heretics, especially ones that truly know what they are talking about.

 

I think he and I are seeing the same thing, but drawing different conclusions.

His technical skills are way way off the chart beyond mine, and I operate more from a comparative basis of works I have seen.

I never specified Edo, as I couldn't say whether 1860 or 1910 work. I did lean towards very late edo or early meiji.

[Edit: re-reading my initial post, I did imply late Edo.... crap. I simply felt it was 19th century work.]

 

My question to Ford then is his opinion as to 19th or early 20th century?

I've certainly been fooled by a 1920s-1930s piece now and then. The tsuba(s) I am referencing were unsigned, but hakogaki by the artists corrected me. I was off by 2 or 3 decades.

This may be another example.

[peterd]

My, i really do feel like a newbie. these guys see things i do not even know to look for.

[Grey Doffin]

How about early 21st century?  From the beginning this has looked to me like a tsuba shaped object made yesterday.

Grey

[MauroP]

The flower depicted is clematis (tessen - 鉄線), quite common in tōsōgu.
I'm with the late Chōshū school hypotesis (very late Edo or Meji).
Bye, Mauro

[Robin]

Thanks for the kind, informative and / or knowledgeable replies.

 

So it's a carved iron clematis Choshu school (inspired) tsuba, or tsuba shaped object, made between late Edo and yesterday.

 

After the previously posted photo's I noticed there was still a lot of rust and grime left. Boiled it again and spend most of the day with pieces of ivory from an old domino game cleaning the tsuba (or tsuba shaped thing). In between removing the scraped off rust and dirt with Blu-Tac.

 

After a drop of choji oil and a good rub...this is the result:

 

It's original choclate brown patina wasn't damaged and no more red rust.

 

Before and after...

 

Thanks,

 

Robin

[Brian]

Damn fine job

[Curran]

  On 12/29/2017 at 6:32 PM, MauroP said:

The flower depicted is clematis (tessen - 鉄線), quite common in tōsōgu.

I'm with the late Chōshū school hypotesis (very late Edo or Meji).

 

I'm sticking with that too.

For a supposed newbie, its good to see Robin has read up on how to strip off the old oil and go at it with ivory.

Having worked a piece like this before, the After photo looks as I would expect. I'll leave it at that.

[kissakai]

In this case it wouldn't bother me too much about age although this post is a good read.

I like it