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Mantetsu Sword...not Koa Isshin!

dwmc

By dwmc
in Military Swords of Japan

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Stephen Grand Master

Stephen

Posted
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Glad im keeping up my rep,  I dont doubt your history with it, stories from vets, i give a hard squint,(strabismus) believe me ive heard them all from running a table at local gun show for years. Frankly it looks like the stuff Komojo (sp) ebay guy was peddling a few years back...but that and 10 cent wont get ya nothing nowadays...Bring it to Chicago and have Bob Benson look at it. all i can say about this.

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Dave R Grand Master

Dave R

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What I find interesting is how many people "want" this to be a Chinese repro', so they can go back into their comfort zone, and not think about what it might really be!....

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dwmc Mentor

dwmc

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What I find interesting is how many people "want" this to be a Chinese repro', so they can go back into their comfort zone, and not think about what it might really be!....

 

 

Dave,  Back on April 11th, 2012 Bruno posted a topic titled "The Seki Tanrensho Book and other Infos." In the post Mr. George Trotter mentions non-traditionaL Gunto from Meji to the end of WWll. He said some very effective weapons were made using new ideas of steel manufacture, forging techniques and battle testing,he referred to Gunsui Electric Steel Co., Yasuki iron, Mantetsuto, Mikasa steel, etc,etc...

 

Yourself, Brian and others are probably a bit more familiar with  this type of non-traditional sword experimentation during Taisho/Showa. The sword could very well fall into this category.

 

At one time I considered a full polish and determined it may not be worth the expense until I was able to determine what exactly it is..

 

I will however, have a Togishi take a look if he is willing, give an opinion, open  a couple more windows ( Kissaki, etc.) and go from there.

It will take a bit of time, obviously, and will post the results.

 

Dave

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vajo Grand Master

vajo

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What I find interesting is how many people "want" this to be a Chinese repro', so they can go back into their comfort zone, and not think about what it might really be!....

Dave maybe it looks very similar to modern steel katana.

 

T-10 steel folded.

post-3496-0-25934400-1514823013_thumb.jpg

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dwmc Mentor

dwmc

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Dave maybe it looks very similar to modern steel katana.

 

T-10 steel folded.

attachicon.gifmodern_t-10_steel.jpg

Maybe Chris, maybe, believe me, I would like to say yes and be done with it... but I really don't think so, you guys as you said previously, are at somewhat of a disadvantage not having the sword in hand and judging by a few pictures. Stephen mentioned earlier about having Bob Bensen taking a look, and truthfully,  I can't say he didn't. I showed the sword to many people at the 2012 SF sword show. Not one person said modern copy or other wise. Mr. Ikeda also.

 

These pictures are about as close as I can get to realistic, in hand appearance, color, contrast, etc.. 

 

I brought the sword for practically nothing , I disregarded the mismatching fittings , and purchased it anyway. I own Nihonto,(some in polish, some out) Gendaito, Type 3, Hantanto, Parade sabers, Type 32's, Bayonets and still this beat up mis-matched Gunto has got me stumped.

 

post-2175-0-67148300-1514826028_thumb.jpgpost-2175-0-32583000-1514826248_thumb.jpgpost-2175-0-16651100-1514826342_thumb.jpg

 

Dave

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vajo Grand Master

vajo

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Your sword looks nice Dave. I don't think it is repro. But a modern T-10 Steel is mixed from different steels to get 0.95 masspercent carbon. So it looks like similar. I'm not a fan of this polish. It is to dominant in my eyes.

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Stephen Grand Master

Stephen

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Believe me i want to be wrong but these ol eyes has seen a lot over the years, Going to Chi town in spring, i plan on making it. Would love to see in hand. Trust me if the nakago had proper file marks....you have plenty of backers just file me as a ol nut.

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dwmc Mentor

dwmc

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Believe me i want to be wrong but these ol eyes has seen a lot over the years, Going to Chi town in spring, i plan on making it. Would love to see in hand. Trust me if the nakago had proper file marks....you have plenty of backers just file me as a ol nut.

 

I followed this board for many years before making a post or comment...Your not a old nut at all, just calling it the way you see it !

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dwmc Mentor

dwmc

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  Interesting photo! Do you have any more information on these?

 

No Dave, the only thing I can add is the sword is horribly out of polish in all other areas other than the polished window. You may notice just how out of polish looking to the far left of the picture with the white carpet back ground. Hopefully, you can get a least somewhat of an idea of sugata by the full length photo, and possibly by a couple of the others...It just seems to me, the ji is a bit wider than normal, and stays relatively wide all the way to the yokote area, it is sharp to the habaki, with out ubuha.

 

Amahide factory mixed metal special order would be perfect...(The first sword I ever saw was an Amahide Gendaito at four or five years old. My Father just 9 years home as a young 11th Airborne Paratrooper brought it home as a momento, not a trophy. I'll never forget wondering just what type of magical device this was as the sun light danced up and down the blade...hence my life long interest/affliction/addiction...etc.)

 

I'm still with you...all due respect to opposing opinions, I'd also say some sort of wwll or pre-wwll sword.

 

I really want to get a couple more areas opened, will post photos when I do..

 

Thanks again,

 

Dave M

Dave R Grand Master

Dave R

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got them from here dave. my sword

 Yes, you beat me to it...... I had it on file but not where from. By the time I had hunted the source down, oops!

Dave R Grand Master

Dave R

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That red rust on nakago...

I think its not Japanese.

 

 Click the link I provided, in the end it was decided that the balance of probability was that it was a Nihonto. There are also other links to similar blades with good provenance.

 

 This whole thread amazes me! If a conventional looking sword had gone to a Togoshi, who window polished it and then said, "not a Nihonto" his judgement would have been accepted with little or no argument. Here  the thread starter was an unconventional looking sword, window polished by a trained Japanese Togoshi who judged it to be "Mantetsu" and "Nihonto", and people are jumping through hoops to disagree. Myself, I would tend to go with the judgement of the trained man who had it in hand, and worked on it even... 

 

Then I would (as I am doing) go looking for examples of other swords that would explain why he came to that conclusion.

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Dave R Grand Master

Dave R

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For not having a dog in the mix yur sure doing a lot of barking.

 

I am interested in what this thing actually is, rather than dismissing it. Why, would you rather I shut up!

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Stephen Grand Master

Stephen

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post-2175-0-90939700-1514588162_thumb.jp

 

Dave last photos of blade make me think Chinese or KOMOJO s sword he was hawking by the donzon a year or so back, you can see the layer of steel in the nakago shot. Id love to be wrong but what your agendia is Dave R is beyond me. Dave org post has retracted thinking a true Mantetsu and sounds like hes going to wait to get a firmer opinion that what some table holders at the show said ...being nice to him....i dont know. 

 

I havent seen the kissaki or the habaki, was all added to it? its a good clue.

Dave R Grand Master

Dave R

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 I can understand the reservations, and I don't like the Nakago either, but you do see some odd stuff with Showato. If it had been Chinese, do you think the Togoshi would have been "kind."

 

 For me, the thing is I have seen another like it, decent provenance but not my sword and so no pics. I think I will just leave it here for now, and just carry on digging for my own satisfaction.

Stephen Grand Master

Stephen

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Maybe i was Heavy on Chinese....but that seller had tons of stuff that we know not  from where they came, under the table in Nippon or China?...we never solved the mystery. 

Brian

Brian

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That nakago really doesn't look all that terrible. There are yasurime visible and the shape is correct. Shinogi line not terrible too. lamination opening might explain the other line.
Not saying it is surely Gendaito, but my Enju Kuni Kunitoshi from early 1900's has similar hada.

We will just have to wait for a clear convincing opinion to solve this.

post-2175-0-90939700-1514588162.jpg

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