Mantetsu Sword...not Koa Isshin!

[Dave R]

 I have no dog in this fight, but what I will say is that I have seen a similar Showa blade, with just as strong a grain, that definitely was not acid treated. Btw, I use the word "Grain" rather than hada quite deliberatly..... It was a Showato, with provenance and we were all a bit puzzled by it. 

[lonely panet]

can we have some close ups of the nakago please.

 

well i think there is no other possible option, but complete the polish and take another look then. 

 

I purchased this sword the day I blew my ear drums after a bad dive, and was so sick I didn't evan take the tsuka off . turned out to be a hanten-to that surrendered in Burma 1945 with full documentation 

[vajo]

This hada looks like, it should look. Very nice sword Hamfish.

 

I think really that polisher had overtune it with his window polish.

The sword is very nice forged. And a good polish should be show the beauty.

 

What about your dive? Decompression or infection?  Hope you go well.

 

Best Chris

[dwmc]

I doubt very much that the Japanese togoshi used any acid on the window polish, though I look forward to a confirmation from Dave that no acid treatment was used later.

  What I took away from this is that it has a "window polish", as in, not the full blade. I have in fact seen something similar at one of the Northern To-Ken Society UK meetings, and if I remember rightly it had the same sort of  issue with the hamon. 

 

Dave R.  There was no acid usage by the Togishi to my knowledge, and trust me, I wasn't about to apply anything afterwards to a newly opened window...

 

The photos don't really do the polished area justice, its actually quite stunning with the sword in hand, there where many Sword show participants after the window was completed whom commented on how attractive the hada was...

 

The super close up photo does make the hada look very strange, but wanted to post it to show the way the grain appeared, the color in the photo is "off " for some reason.

 

Thanks again,

 

Dave M.

[dwmc]

I'll have some Nakago photo's posted soon.

 

Dave M.

[dwmc]

These are photos of the Nakago.

 

 

 

Dave

[lonely panet]

This hada looks like, it should look. Very nice sword Hamfish.

 

I think really that polisher had overtune it with his window polish.

The sword is very nice forged. And a good polish should be show the beauty.

 

What about your dive? Decompression or infection?  Hope you go well.

 

Best Chris

 

barotrauma to the ear, no membrane damage but a solid week of vomiting and ear pain.

 

would rather have a car inserted up my urethra then suffer that again  

 

out of interest are you using ur phone to take photos?? 

[dwmc]

barotrauma to the ear, no membrane damage but a solid week of vomiting and ear pain.

 

would rather have a car inserted up my urethra then suffer that again  

 

out of interest are you using ur phone to take photos?? 

 

 

Yes, using my phone, hope their at least fairly adequate.

 

Dave

[reeder]

Definitely not a Mantetsu-to

[lonely panet]

no,

looks more like the nakago's you see on the semi- machine made blades on the arsenal grade kyu guntos.

 

is it just my eyes or does the colour of the nakago look odd

[PNSSHOGUN]

Nakago looks nothing like a Mantetsu, they are always finished extremely well. In fact it looks like someone "cleaned" it at some point.

[David Flynn]

Looks Chinese to me.

[vajo]

Looks like a modern chinese sword nakago.

[lonely panet]

Would or could a togi be fooled ??

[PNSSHOGUN]

Would a Togishi in Japan have experience with modern Chinese swords is an interesting question.

[dwmc]

Would a Togishi in Japan have experience with modern Chinese swords is an interesting question.

 

Gentlemen,

 

I have to say I'm bit surprised at the reaction generated by this sword. The story in my opening post occurred just the way I said it did.

 

I showed the sword to many sword dealers at the August, 2012 San Francisco sword show, many of which some of you may know. Not one suggested it blade was a modern Chinese copy. However, some were a bit confused with the Nakago, as I have also been. Yasurime, not impressive, Mumei, etc..

You would think a modern Chinese copy would have some goofy looking kanji characters...

 

The Togishi was not fooled, however, I felt he was not particularly impressed either. As I mentioned earlier, I was surprised by him suggesting Mantetsu. The only two words I recognized were Mantetsu, when he was explaining his assessment to Mr. Hughes, and the word Showato as he was speaking in Japanese to another gentleman. When I heard the word Showato,  I asked Mr. Hughes if the Togishi was referring to a low quaility constructed blade.

He said the Togishi was just refering to the Era.

 

As Dave R. stated earlier and what seems to make at least some sense, is Mr. Ikeda felt for whatever reason, the sword was made with some sort of Manchurian steel and used the word Mantetsu. This is basically what Mr. Hughes explained to me. I really don't know what more to say...

 

The sword was found ( as I was told) on one of the Pacific Islands by a young Marine truck driver delivering supplies to the front line. He brought it home and it was wrapped in a blanket left in the rafters on a garage for many years..

 

All opinions are welcome and appreciated, and I think the wise words of Shamsy explain these odd Showa era swords the best by saying, "The only certainty is uncertainty."

 

Dave

[IJASWORDS]

Dave, I once purchased a similar blade in original type3 mounts, very reasonably priced as well. When I got it home I found a Chinese blade fitted to the WW2 mounts. It now resides under my bed in the event of unwelcome guests, and obviously not with my gunto collection. A worry to me on your outfit (other than the blade) is the mix of fittings which it was not be originally fitted with. This shows some fiddling after war. I am in agreement with David Flynn, who I know has great experience with Gendai/Showa blades.   

You have asked forum members for help, and you have received information that you probably didn't want to hear, but that is the nature of this "free" advice. Looking through previous topics, nothing generates more discussion than blades of "questionable" origin.  

[dwmc]

Would or could a togi be fooled ??

 

When board members such as yourselves, who have handled and viewed perhaps hundreds if not thousands of Japanese swords, it's a good idea to listen to what's being said...

 

However one thing I can say with certainty if it is Chinese made, modern...it ain't.

 

The question I have is...Were there swords made in China using Manchurian Steel associated with the Mantetsu group in the 1930's (pre-Koa Isshin.)

 

Dave

[dwmc]

Dave, I once purchased a similar blade in original type3 mounts, very reasonably priced as well. When I got it home I found a Chinese blade fitted to the WW2 mounts. It now resides under my bed in the event of unwelcome guests, and obviously not with my gunto collection. A worry to me on your outfit (other than the blade) is the mix of fittings which it was not be originally fitted with. This shows some fiddling after war. I am in agreement with David Flynn, who I know has great experience with Gendai/Showa blades.   

You have asked forum members for help, and you have received information that you probably didn't want to hear, but that is the nature of this "free" advice. Looking through previous topics, nothing generates more discussion than blades of "questionable" origin.  

 

Neil thank you.

 

This is precisely the beauty and objective of the NMB. No offense taken in any way. Thank you all!

 

Dave

[PNSSHOGUN]

Dave, I'm glad you're willing to listen to experienced members, too often we see members with "unique, rare, unusual" swords that they believe are undocumented treasures us simple enthusiasts are too dim to comprehend.

 

I'd be glad to look at some more detailed pictures of the Kissaki, Shinogi and overall Sugata/Shape and mounts of the sword so we can really nail down exactly what you have. From the initial pictures you provided the Gunto mounts look authentic, so it would be unlucky to have a modern Chinese blade in them.

[vajo]

Dave i didn't say it is chinese made. I say the nakago looks like a modern chinese. I want to say that the blade didn't fit for me what i know, but what i know.

 

Mantetsu made swords a very beautifull made in all aspects. 

 

 

[Brian]

We seem to be going down a one way road here. Personally, I do not think this is Chinese at all, but certainly made from mixed steels. We see this same kind of contrast in Taisho and Showa swords sometimes. Nakago is typical of a Showato style sword. Right shape. Not sure about hamon. But with all the experimenting going on...I don't think this is Chinese, just unconventional wartime experimenting.
But that's just my opinion, could always be wrong

[dwmc]

Dave, I'm glad you're willing to listen to experienced members, too often we see members with "unique, rare, unusual" swords that they believe are undocumented treasures us simple enthusiasts are too dim to comprehend.

 

I'd be glad to look at some more detailed pictures of the Kissaki, Shinogi and overall Sugata/Shape and mounts of the sword so we can really nail down exactly what you have. From the initial pictures you provided the Gunto mounts look authentic, so it would be unlucky to have a modern Chinese blade in them

 

 

 

John, When I first purchased the sword, I noticed it obviously looked "Pieced together." The blade is what caught my attention, even out of polish as it was, and mostly still is. 

 

I am willing to accept what ever the member consensus is regarding the blade. Good, bad, no problem...

 

The sword, other than the polished area, is rough to say the least, at some point I will attempt to get some decent pictures together and send them along to you.

 

Thanks for your offer,

 

Dave

[dwmc]

Dave i didn't say it is chinese made. I say the nakago looks like a modern chinese. I want to say that the blade didn't fit for me what i know, but what i know.

 

Mantetsu made swords a very beautifull made in all aspects. 

 

Fair enough Chris, Fair enough...Your opinion is most welcome!

 

Dave

[dwmc]

We seem to be going down a one way road here. Personally, I do not think this is Chinese at all, but certainly made from mixed steels. We see this same kind of contrast in Taisho and Showa swords sometimes. Nakago is typical of a Showato style sword. Right shape. Not sure about hamon. But with all the experimenting going on...I don't think this is Chinese, just unconventional wartime experimenting.

But that's just my opinion, could always be wrong

Brian, as you know, sword shows are very busy. You really don't want to over dominate a dealers time. This may be in part which led to the confusion regarding this sword. Mr. Hughes was doing his best to answer my questions while dealing with many others.

 

With all due respect to all learned board members, I'm inclined to think you and Dave R. may be on the right road. Some odd wartime Showato experiment.

 

Highly value your opinion also,

 

Dave

[vajo]

Dave

we all judge here from photos. Mostly in hand a sword or tosogu looks totaly different. Maybe the dealers see something that we didn't know. And you see that in that topic the meaning goes different. I'm sure that it is not a mantetsu made sword, but it is a well made sword. 

[dwmc]

Dave

we all judge here from photos. Mostly in hand a sword or tosogu looks totaly different. Maybe the dealers see something that we didn't know. And you see that in that topic the meaning goes different. I'm sure that it is not a mantetsu made sword, but it is a well made sword. 

 

Thanks Chris, The sword is what it is. I take no offense and welcome all opinions. I would also like to say I found Mr. Bob Hughes very forthright and honest, and if there was any lack of understanding it was on my part. I'm was, and still am honored by Mr. Ikeda's work on my sword and will recommend their services highly!

 

As mentioned previously, this is what the board is all about, debate and knowledge. I agree, pictures sometimes just don't tell the full story (particularly mine.)

 

Dave

[Shamsy]

When Mr Ikeda said Manchurian, could be have been saying Chinese? As one may say ‘It’s a Detroit car’, so made in U.S.?

 

Manchuria was also invaded precisely for the raw materials, so he may have simply been saying the steel is not native to Japan.

 

Just a couple of thoughs, but I personally stick to my original opinion. If possible, try to take the sword to a collecting group or a togishi, because pictures are never as good as an in-hand look.

[lonely panet]

well it sounds like we have got everyone stumped abit.

 

maybe a completed polish to help settle  it??

 

like Brain said, the Japanese did alot of experimenting in the taisho/showa times, 

 

I can say this. ( I DONT KNOW) early experimental swords have plenty of odd balls. 

[dwmc]

well it sounds like we have got everyone stumped abit.

 

maybe a completed polish to help settle  it??

 

like Brain said, the Japanese did alot of experimenting in the taisho/showa times, 

 

I can say this. ( I DONT KNOW) early experimental swords have plenty of odd balls. 

 

Thank you Hamfish and all others for having a go at solving the mystery of this sword. I appreciate everyone's opinion and would like to reiterate my purpose was not portray the sword as something is not, but something leading to discussion in the pursuit of knowledge.

 

I didn't expect the response the post received, and probably should have titled the topic as "Mantetsu  Sword?" and not made it sound so as a matter of fact. I honestly only expected maybe a somewhat criptic comment from Stephen, ( Stephen is many times Dead on with his opinions ) and also a couple others mentioning that Manchurian steel was quite commonly used pre-WWll and before.

 

I did have have a suggestion years ago from a very knowledgeable individual who said  the sword was possibly Shin-shinto era which had been a fire at some point. Also, that the Nakago appeared severely cleaned with some type of chemical...

 

If I were on the opposite end of this topic, frankly looking at the 300% close up at the hada photo, I may have very well said modern Chinese myself.

 

I have contacted a sword polisher and he tentatively agreed to polish a window in another sword I own, of course as with most Togi their very busy and have a lot going on, I have every intention of reconnecting with him and if I promise not to head his direction with a trunk full of rusted Gunto, maybe he will be kind enough and find the time to at least open a couple of modest windows and hopefully help further our knowledge. 

 

If I angered anyone from my comments, I apologize, it's due to a basic lack of literary skills and inability to express my self through the written word..

 

Thanks again to all,

 

Hopefully further future information,

 

Dave