Mantetsu Sword...not Koa Isshin!

[dwmc]

Hello Members,

 

I decided to post this as more of a "Show and Tell" for those of us who have a few of the Showa Era non-traditional forged swords, non-tamahagane swords, etc...

 

I purchased a mumei sword many years ago (very reasonably) after noticing, even in a very out of polished state, it had a prominent hada. Almost an Hadatatsu/Hadamono type. The sword was what I thought appeared to be a high Shinogi Yamato appearing Koto blade. However the Nakago simply didn't bear this (hopeful) opinion out...just didn't have older Koto look. Shin-shinto era copy maybe???

 

Anyway, I eventually took it to the San Francisco sword show in 2012. Showed it to many of the sword

dealers, upon looking at the sword, most had the look of someone who had just taken a large shot of extremely high proof alcohol...

 

Eventually, I ended up at the booth of Mr. Bob Hughes who had invited Mr. Nagamasa Ikeda, a well known Togishi to offer some minor sword repair work during the sword show. I immediately jumped at the opportunity to have window polished in the sword. Mr. Ikeda looked at the sword for just a very short period of time and said...Mantetsu. Mr. Hughes spoke with him briefly and returned to me and said my sword was forged using Manchurian steel. He said it was a Showa era forged sword, hince the lack of a older looking Nakago. As I mentioned earlier, the sword is unsigned, and was unsure how Mr. Ikeda had come to this conclusion so quickly, but even after he opened the window, he still maintained it was forged with Mantetsu using traditional methods. Part of his reasoning was do to the hardness of the steel.

 

I've read a couple of articles which mention Manchurian steel was highly prized by Japanese Sword Smiths. I assume meaning for forging swords by traditional methods, although using Manchurian steel. (Not the Koa Isshin forged swords) 

 

Are these swords forged by traditional methods during the Showa era but using Manchurian steel simply a rare anomaly. I can find very little concerning the type of sword???

 

Dave

[Bruce Pennington]

Dave,

 

Have you read the Ohmura pages? ( http://ohmura-study.net/998.html )

 

It is interesting that there is no kanji at all?! I have seen custom jobs done by various smiths, but can't say I have seen it from the Mantesu group, though, it wouldn't surprise me. I've recently seen someone with a waki made by Mantetsu, so clearly it is possible.

[Dave R]

 A good looking blade. You do get blades forged from homogeneous steel, aka mill steel that has been folded in the traditional manner in Showato. In fact they are one of the reasons for the introduction of the Sho stamp, because they were passing for, and being sold as, fully traditional blades.

[Dave R]

 Just out of interest, are these the mounts it came in, or ones put together later?

[Shamsy]

Interesting read and I like the story that goes with it (even illustrated!). There seems to be no certainty in Japanese swords except uncertainty. 95s for example; one of the most standard sword patterns and yet dozens of variants and abnormalities. Love this hobby, thanks for sharing.

[Dave R]

Interesting read and I like the story that goes with it (even illustrated!). There seems to be no certainty in Japanese swords except uncertainty. 95s for example; one of the most standard sword patterns and yet dozens of variants and abnormalities. Love this hobby, thanks for sharing.

 

 I started of with Nihonto, but have now been brought to the "Dark Side"  largely because of all the variations within Showato and Shin-Gunto.

[IJASWORDS]

Dave, as a "Darksider" like you I really appreciate Gendaito/Showato in Gunto mounts. But can a mill steel blade even if folded be made in the 'traditional way"? My thoughts on the matter relate to how traditional nihonto were made from laminated steel. Shigane (soft) core steel. and Hagane (hard) outer or case steel. YEP, you can fold and heat treat mill steel, but laminated it is not.

I have blades made in the 1940's which actually say in the mei, made in the KOBUSE manner (soft steel core).

Your thoughts and comments on my theory would be welcome, as I am always willing to learn from more enlightened folk.

[vajo]

If we look to china in the longquan sword fabrications they made many things. They fold and laminated modern steel and water queched the hot iron.

They make all the things that not could been working. And someone here from the community told me that some smiths from koto and shinto times queched thier work in oil. Maybe many is possible.

[Dave R]

 I would hardly describe myself as "more enlightened".

 You get a grain in old (late 19th c early 20t c) railway track from Sweden, which is decarburised (puddled) Pig Iron rolled and folded to make a track section. Some British rail of the same era also can have a grain. To bring it out, the Seki smiths would repeatedly heat and cool the blade blank.  There are also references to ordinary "mill steel" being folded, and a grain produced. What produces the grain,... possibly just the slag and oxide layers building up during the repeated welds. Usagiya have a few words to say on the subject.. http://www.ksky.ne.jp/~sumie99/sunobe.html And here is a link to articles on early industrial production of iron and steel, it needs reading and clicking links to get the full story, but relevant to the steels recycled by Showa smiths during the war.   https://www.britannica.com/technology/puddling-process

These processes were pretty well obsolete  by the 1920s-30's which is why the Japanese smiths recycled old rail tracks. Cheap, readily available, not reserved for other war production and generally produced a decent blade. 

[Dave R]

The links seem to be broken atm, I'll give them a go later.  http://www.ksky.ne.jp/~sumie99/sunobe.html

[Jon MB]

regarding this blade, not sure I see the Mantetsu connection.

[dwmc]

Gentlemen....

 

Thank you all for your input.

 

Bruce, Yes I have read the article at the Ohmura site...excellent information!

 

Dave R., The sword was supposably brought back as is, Kyo Sukashi tsuba and all...but who knows.

                Thank you for your information.

 

Shamsy, No truer words spoken, the only certainty is uncertainty.

 

Thank you Neil and Chris for your comments also...

 

 

Dave

[dwmc]

regarding this blade, not sure I see the Mantetsu connection.

 

Hi Jon,  The Mantetsu connection is based entirely off the Togishi's opinion.

 

Dave

[Brian]

Sorry, but I'm not buying the Mantetsu attribution. Showa yes. Made by adding foreign steel..yes.
But Mantetsu? Nope...not imho, sorry.
I think sometimes Westerners have more experience with Showato and Gunto than many in Japan. Just my opinion of course.

[Stephen]

Maybe the togi just meant Chinese made???

[Dave R]

Maybe the togi just meant Chinese made???

 

I think he would have left no one in any doubt if he had thought it was modern Chinese made.

[Dave R]

I think sometimes Westerners have more experience with Showato and Gunto than many in Japan. Just my opinion of course.

 

Seeing as they are an illegal weapon in Japan, I have no doubt about that at all.

[dwmc]

Sorry, but I'm not buying the Mantetsu attribution. Showa yes. Made by adding foreign steel..yes.

But Mantetsu? Nope...not imho, sorry.

I think sometimes Westerners have more experience with Showato and Gunto than many in Japan. Just my opinion of course.

 

Brian, Honestly, I was stunned also by the Mantetsu attribution. But my understanding at the time was it was not a Koa Isshin related sword, but simply a blade using Mantetsu steel with traditional forging methods. 

 

Stephen, I know, the sword looks pretty weird, but seriously, definitely not modern Chinese..

 

Dave

[Dave R]

Railway steel!

 

   Mantetsu was primarily a Railway Company, Minamimanshū Tetsudō Kabushikigaisha; Nánmǎnzhōu Tiědào Zhūshìhuìshè,  which then expanded into all sorts of other activities. (Mantetsu also had a presence in Japan, not just in Manchuria and Korea.)

 

   Back in the day (Fuller and Gregory)  it was assumed that Mantetsu swords were in fact made out of old rail track, whereas we now know a lot more about them, especially the Koa-Isshin blades. I think our Togoshi was possibly just meaning that he thought it was rail track steel, Mantetsu would be the maker that would then spring to mind.

 

 This would also account for it being a very hard steel, with a grain, but also not worth signing at the time. A Seki special. Btw, it should be one hell of a cutter, being a high carbon manganese steel

[David Flynn]

interesting, there isn't a defined Nioi Guchi.

[dwmc]

Railway steel!

 

   Mantetsu was primarily a Railway Company, Minamimanshū Tetsudō Kabushikigaisha; Nánmǎnzhōu Tiědào Zhūshìhuìshè,  which then expanded into all sorts of other activities. (Mantetsu also had a presence in Japan, not just in Manchuria and Korea.)

 

   Back in the day (Fuller and Gregory)  it was assumed that Mantetsu swords were in fact made out of old rail track, whereas we now know a lot more about them, especially the Koa-Isshin blades. I think our Togoshi was possibly just meaning that he thought it was rail track steel, Mantetsu would be the maker that would then spring to mind.

 

 This would also account for it being a very hard steel, with a grain, but also not worth signing at the time. A Seki special. Btw, it should be one hell of a cutter, being a high carbon manganese steel

 

Thank You Dave...Your explanation makes perfect sense, and yes I'm sure it would be a excellent cutter.

 

Thanks again,

 

Dave

[tokashikibob]

The hada looks like a  Amahide's factory mixed metal special order

[Brian]

Namban-tetsu, that's where I would have put it. Japanese steel mixed with imported foreign steel, giving the high contrasting hada that we sometimes see in Showa era.
Either way, a very striking sword and far more interesting than most Showato and even many Gendaito.

[vajo]

For my taste it looks to much "Dimaschq". Maybe the Polisher has overstate it. 

[Dave R]

 Whatever it is, it is one damn fine sword!

[lonely panet]

I'm abit on the fence guys, something is odd about the hada/"Dimaschq".

 

whys does the hada stop above the hamon looking HA. Mr Flynn has pointed it out too, no noi-guchi, no nothing, just a white area

[Stephen]

I think what's throwing me off is the polish....to heavy with the acid.

[Dave R]

I doubt very much that the Japanese togoshi used any acid on the window polish, though I look forward to a confirmation from Dave that no acid treatment was used later.

  What I took away from this is that it has a "window polish", as in, not the full blade. I have in fact seen something similar at one of the Northern To-Ken Society UK meetings, and if I remember rightly it had the same sort of  issue with the hamon. 

[Stephen]

Well i respectfully agree to disagree. But i wasn't standing there for each moment of his work. So what do i know?

[Brian]

I wouldn't be surprised at all to find out that quick window polishes at shows use water with an additive to show as much as possible. Using mild acid with a quick window polish would show as much as possible as fast as possible, and a polisher would know how to completely neutralize it. Not saying it was done...but I am saying it is not counted out.
We do know that some modern polishers do use some form in some way. But they know what they are doing with it.