re-patinating an iron tsuba

[Guest nickn]

i have a large iron tsuba that someone has put rust remover on so its mainly a dull silver colour can any one tell me how to re-patinate it? i thought of using a gun browning solution

[Stephen]

Nick

 

don't use the gun patina, id send it to a togi, they have the tricks up their sleeves. Commander Milt has a recipe not sure what it was, he did something with letting it sit out side in some kinda chemical soup, I really cant help with your tsuba's you have posted, with all the tosogu pp we have here id hope one or two would post soon.

[rkg]

Nick,

 

First of all, it sounds like somebody used naval jelly on it? For some reason I've found that surfaces treated with

this stuff seem more resistant to rust than you'd think (I know, this makes no sense because naval jelly

is just phosphoric acid mixed in with some goop to make it jelly-like so it will hang on the surface with enough

acid to do some good, but that's been my experience with car restoration, so YMMV...).

 

As far as repatination goes, I tried several things before I knew any better. Don't do it - the patina will look

OK to you until you see an actual piece from the school... There are certain self proclaimed patination "experts" in the

US whose pieces you can spot immediately especially if you put an un-jacked-with piece from the same

school next to it - they often have a funky blue tint and/or smell like an oil refinery... there's like one guy in the US

that can do it "right".

 

What can get you an OK finish is time - one way to do this is to put the piece outdoors where it won't get rained on/can't get carted off by curious animals/children and let it sit, checking it occasionally - bright red rust is bad, and you

want to remove that with a cloth (I tend to use something fairly coarse like an old cotton sock) or possibly a

piece of ivory or antler if you let it go too far. Hit up Jim Gilbert's site for a far better explanation of all this

stuff than I can give off the top of my head....

a pointer is:

 

http://home.earthlink.net/~jggilbert/Cleaning.htm

 

Best,

 

rkg

(Richard George)

[Guest nickn]

thanks for the information

i have used iodine to repatinate nakago but the finish is quite red even after boneing down

i wonder what could be done to make the finish more like that found on old tsuba?

[Guest nickn]

i have applied iodine ,as i would for a nakago, and the rust is forming very quickly so the tsuba steel must have a high carbon content ,it does ring like a bell, i tried iodine on a piece of cast iron i had but hasnt worked very well the rust being very patchy due to the low carbon??

[Brian]

Nick,

 

I wouldn't go the iodine route. I can see no real positive aspect to it, except for giving a totally different artiificial look to the one it has now.

The art of tsuba and nakago repatination is one of the most complex and closely guarded of all the procedures. If it was simple, everyone would be doing it, instead of a handful of professionals. There are many tips ranging from hanging up in an outdoors latrine, to the carrying in a pocket with a soft cloth, to the years worth of light rubbing. Ingredients range from nose and forehead oil to various noxious concoctions.

I believe Ford had some info on it, on the old carving path forum. I am not sure if he has posted it on his new forum yet, I will have to check. The old thread is here: http://www.thecarvingpath.net/forum/ind ... topic=1016 It is very involved and takes a real artist to get right. Anything else just looks artificial. I wish I could give you better news, but at the end of the day this is something for a professional who is an expert on the true methods.

If you do decide to give it a try yourself, make sure it is on a worn out and fairly average plain tsuba, and don't try the "quickie" methods as none are really worth much.

 

Regards,

Brian

[Bungo]

" The art of tsuba and nakago repatination is one of the most complex and closely guarded of all the procedures "

 

there are ways........ by the way, it doesn't smell

 

 

milt

[Guest nickn]

well i put iodine on the tsuba several times a day and have now started boneing the rust off with a piece of ivory and rubbing on a nylon carpet remember it was a grey/silver colour when i started ,i wish i had taken before photos, it least i can now see the bridge which before just looked like raised squares. the plate is well forged any thoughts on age school?

[Guest nickn]

2

[Guest nickn]

is it that bad????

[Stephen]

pretty much, after asking for advice you went ahead and did the Iodine???

[remzy]

Looks kind of rusty and redish, which isnt a good sign at all.

[Guest nickn]

you must remeber this tsuba had been dipped in rust remover so was a grey silver colour ,i should have taken photos, and from the pitting must have been very rusty

it will get better with boneing and rubbing on a piece of carpet .as you can see i have not ruined a national treasure!

as for advice i was only told it was very hard to do and not to use iodine

[Guido]

it least i can now see the bridge which before just looked like raised squares.

Kind of a Rorschach test, isn't it? I see sails of boats on the background of ugly red rust. Or maybe naked Swedish nuns hiding under soiled cardboard boxes. But that's just me.

[Bungo]

Is that the true color ? I see you have another dragon tsuba with the same purplish hue.

 

milt

[Guest nickn]

at least i am getting replies to my posts!

look this was a junk tsuba .i have not finished with it yet but even now it looks a hell of a lot better then it did i wish i could show you the state it was in

how much do you think it would have cost to have repatinated? $100+ how much would it have been worth once done $80???

[Guest nickn]

no its not my camera is very old the bridge tsuba is not red or purple-ish

and the dragon one is perfect and has not been refinished

[Ford Hallam]

I'm as bemused :? as Stephen,... you ask for advice, promptly ignore it, and then come back for approval....

 

I'm also somewhat amused by your metallurgical understanding. Where did you discover that the propensity of a piece of steel to rust is an indicator of it's carbon content?, or that you can tell that "the plate is well forged"?

 

In any case, as Brian pointed out ( and you evidently didn't bother to read ) using Iodine, as opposed to almost any other liquid..., would not make the slightest difference in terms of making the steel rust other than to give it an odd smell and colour. It's use on nakago should equally be discouraged.

 

Now that you have a coat of rust what do you intend to do to finish the patination process? Just curious as you obviously have your own ideas on this.

 

Richard posted a link for you to some very useful material on Jim Gilbert's site too. I gather you didn't bother to take that in either. Jim advises not to try buffing the surface with synthetic materials ( ie; nylon carpet ) as they leave an unnatural, greasy finish.

 

btw, the "bridge" you can see are actually the sails of boats.

 

Thankfully, the tsuba you are working on is of no great significance but I have to say I think this sort of total disregard for any of the sensible advice offered is a little rash.

 

Ford

[Guest nickn]

actually ford it was you that suggested iodine , along with salt and vinegar but not at the same time, when i asked you how to patinate a nakago 20 odd years ago!

iodine promotes rust on steel just leave an open bottle of iodine near a piece of steel and it will start rusting straight away instantly

i have not finnished with this tsuba and will keep bonning it down and rubbing on a piece of old carpet

i didnt get any advice i was just told how hard it was to get a good finnish

i am not looking for approval

as this tsuba had been essentially ruined by rust remover i have done it no harm

by well firge i mean i can see the laminations around the edge and it rings like a bell

[Guest nickn]

sorry i meant wool not nylon carpet

sails yes i see them

[Ford Hallam]

Hi Nick,

 

I wonder where I offered that bit of advice, regarding Iodine, 20 odd years ago...are you sure it was me? Because I've never used it other than in relation to silver, but that's a whole other matter. I assume then, that we've met...my apologies, your memory must be better than mine. perhaps you can remind me.

 

and you were offered some very good sources of information, the link to Jim Gilbert's site and the fairly extensive thread on "the carving path", that Brian offered.

 

regards, Ford

[Guest nickn]

hello ford

it was at on of the token meetings ,it might have been the last show, i brought along a mutsu no kami kaniyasu wakizashi that had a polished nakago i repatinated the nakago and got nbthk papers

we then spoke on the phone a few times about patinating a shakudo kogai that again had been polished your advice was to de-grease and leave in the bath room near the toliet ,ammonia and nitrates i guess.after a couple of months it was nice and black again

nick

[Ford Hallam]

hi Nick,

 

sorry for not remembering, too many faces I imagine. As for the nakago, what can I say, I honestly don't recall, but if it subsequently got papers...damn, I'm good :D , I guess you owe me a beer then.

 

regards, Ford

[Guest nickn]

i owe you a beer for the kogai

you said the better the shakudo the quicker and darker it would get by just leaving it by the toliet

i bought it very cheaply from peter york as it had been polished and had no idea how to get the black back someone else said put it in a box of sulphur and shake once a day

do we know what colour iron tsuba were when new?

[Ford Hallam]

Hi Nick,

 

sorry for the delay in getting back to you. The whole subject of what colour an iron tsuba was when new is hellishly difficult to answer with any sort of certainty because these things tend to "improve" with age, as long as they are well kept. Different schools are of course noted for particular colours in their patinas but we can only assume that they were as conspicuous when new as they are now. My guess would be that these differences were deliberate and are not artefacts of age.

 

Earlier tsuba seem in general to have a wet, thin patina that doesn't obscure the metal underneath. As we get into the Edo period we see more of what I would call a russet type of patina. This is more recognisable as a purely rust based coating. These patinas do hide the real character of the metal but this may also be in response to the use of "factory" produced metal that had no really interesting characteristics.

 

The best guide I can suggest would be good, old examples that are in good condition, not much more I can suggest I'm afraid.

 

regards, Ford