Fatal Flaw (?)

[EastCoast]

Hello All! (First post here)...

 

I received a new blade today (NBTHK Tokubetsu Hozon Paper - Kinmichi 2nd Gen.) and noticed an issue that was undisclosed prior to purchase. I wanted to get everyone's opinion on whether I should be concerned.

 

[Ray Singer]

Mune-ware is not a fatal flaw. I do think it should have been disclosed though.

[EastCoast]

Thank you. I was under the impression that it couldn't pass Tokubetsu Hozon with a flaw like that, so I was a little confused. It still concerns me since it runs as deep as it does. I can slide the corner of a sheet of paper between the split.

[Peter Bleed]

The mune-machi (if that is what we are looking at) seem very deep. The Mune ware is a "honker" but I'd wonder why the machi is so big.

Peter

[TheGermanBastard]

Not a fatal flaw and acceptable while not not that nice - where it all depends on the price tag and your personal taste at the end of the day. Is that a Wakizashi which we had seen on eBay recently?

[EastCoast]

Here are the dimensions:

 

Blade length : 71.3 cm or 28.07 inches.
Sori :1.4 cm or 0.55inches.
Width at the hamachi : 3.23cm or 1.27 inches.
Width at the Kissaki : 2.22cm or 0.874 inches.
Kasane : 0.77cm or 0.3 inches.

[EastCoast]

NihontoCollector,

 

No, but a search of the info I posted above may turn up other “details.”

Just did not want to name names, since this is a first time occurrence with someone I have much respect for.

[Vermithrax16]

Very healthy sword, can't see the details so well with the pictures, but should have been mentioned in listing for sure.

[Ken-Hawaii]

Please put your first name on all posts, per Brian's rules.

 

I'm concerned that you can actually fit a sheet of paper into the split! I usually have no trouble with mune-ware, but I'm worried that this one is large enough to eventually spall off.

[TheGermanBastard]

if it was my blade I would have disclosed the flaw as I feel it goes beyond your common Mune Ware ... it is not a nice one and one of the more uglier ones I have seen.

 

If I were you I would

 

a) Decide if to keep it or not.

 

b- If wishing to keep it aks for a partial refund

 

c) Otherwise return it

 

Aoi Art sells a large number of blades. They basically try to turn them around quickly. So fault can simply slip ... hence I would kindly point that out to the vendor.

[J Reid]

I'm surprised it received tokubetsu Hozon with a flaw like that..

[EastCoast]

Thank you all. I have mailed the vendor and will let you know the outcome.

 

-James

[TheGermanBastard]

I'm surprised it received tokubetsu Hozon with a flaw like that..

 

Hello Josh,

 

well it is a good maker and aside from the flaw the blade looks healthy so I am not too surprised since having seen worth than that papered to TBH. On the other hand I am surpised what blades sometimes fail TBH Shinsa. So from that point of view it is interesting that this one passed but as we can see not impossible.

 

A polisher could probably fix the gap more or less.

 

Best regards

[PNSSHOGUN]

That is quite extraordinary to pass TH, it must be a good sword indeed.

[TheGermanBastard]

What is nice about it is its length. Not huge but solid. Overall a nice piece. The more I can understand the disappointment of the buyer as it is like a scratch in your otherwise perfect car.

[vajo]

It looks like a crack not a ware.

[TheGermanBastard]

It is a deep Ware

[Jean]

One must consider that a Hozon blade can be a future Juyo or that at TH you have a wide range of quality blades, blades of high quality which will pass Juyo, others which are of same qualities which won’t pass because Juyo shinsa has become a competition rather than a passed criteria exam, others which are very good swords but not juyo competition level and others which barely/merely pass TH... samegoes with Juyo...

 

As says Darcy: « Tokubetsu Hozon similar supports all levels of desirability to the maximum.« 

 

 

Read this article: https://www.nihonto.ca/ha/?p=540#more-540

[Jean]

Just to add and illustrate my above post: 7 to 10 years ago, there was a tanto for sale by Aoi Art. It existed only two tanto recorded from the founder of the Ayanokoji school, Sadatoshi, one having disappeared. This tanto was Tokubetsu Hozon. What is the gap between this tanto and the one dicuss in this thread. Even if this tanto does not pass juyo, what is worth this tanto compared to some Kosori juyo?

 

This means also that Juyo is not the graal and they are some swords which will never pass Juyo but which are far more precious than a kanteisho

[TheGermanBastard]

Very well said Jean!

 

In the end people should admire what they have. So if the buyer can admire the Kinmichi despite this flaw he will be a happy owner. If he can't he should be enabled to return it.

 

Currently it has become very hard to achieve TBH level with Gendai blades. However they may be just true masterpieces of art will a beatn up old Kamakura thing may make it easily to TBH.

 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/NAGINATA-sword-w-NBTHK-TOKUBETSU-HOZON-HOUJYU-KAMAKURA-36-4-24-2/292250439869?hash=item440b7bd0bd:g:gbEAAOSwinVZt2TX

 

But still of someone likes this Naginata he is fine. There is no reson for falling in love with someone but love on its own

[EastCoast]

Still waiting on a response\resolution. The seller responded to my brother's emails yesterday about another item, but not mine. A little discouraged, but this seller has been very good to me so far, so I am keeping the faith.

 

 

 

-James

[TheGermanBastard]

No worries James.Give him some time. Respsonding to a potential sales request is both more pleasent and less demandig than to respond to a complain.For example offering a partial refund just takes some thought  / consideration jeme zo,e and he may have to talk to someone else first prior to getting back to you. E.g the sword may have been a conseignment.

 

While this was not the best expiriemce I would have no doubt that he will do his best to solve this and is a trustworthy dealer.

[EastCoast]

All,

 

The seller responded with a very generous offer. I just have to decide what path to take. So many wonderful swords and yoroi available. I do like to pair each blade with a nice suit of armor.

 

Best,

James

[EastCoast]

I am going to examine the issue using an electron microscope. I'll fill everyone in on my findings.

 

Best,

James

[jeremy]

Depends what one means by fatal flaw. Normally to me it means a sword that has become rendered useless as a weapon which in this case is definitely not the case, which to me isn't a fatal flaw

Jeremy

[Ken-Hawaii]

Not quite right, Jeremy. A fatal flaw is one that would or could cause the blade to fail in its use as a weapon.

[jeremy]

I guess I didn't word it as well as you ken, but that's essentially what i meant ☺

Jeremy

[TheGermanBastard]

Not quite right, Jeremy. A fatal flaw is one that would or could cause the blade to fail in its use as a weapon.

 

I am not with you on this Ken. Missing Boshi ... rather fatal as an Art sword but won't really affect the use as a weapon ... Or let's take bad Shintetsu / Tieredness ... none fatal as a weapon but again fatal as an Art sword. Giev a Shinshinto blade some areas of Shintetsu while the blade may still have a lot of meat and the blade is a bummer while you can chop your neighbour into pieces just fine ...

[Ken-Hawaii]

Feel free to disagree, Luis - the forum is here for discussion. What's fatal as a collector may not be fatal as a weapon-user, & vice-versa. And I'm pretty sure that you don't train in iaijutsu.

[TheGermanBastard]

Hello Ken, well I don't need to train Iaijitsu in order to be able to hurt someone with a sword and aside from a hagire there is little that will make my blade fall apart and thus prevent me from hurting another individual.

 

But since you have more insight: What flaw in a sword will prevent you from killing another individual?