Surfson Posted January 9, 2018 Report Share Posted January 9, 2018 I agree with your comments about those two scenarios protecting old horimono from the ravages of polishing Jean. You may recall the Nobukuni blade that was discussed under the auction section that had classic Nobukuni horimono well preserved in the tang because of osuriage from a tachi to a katana. Preservation by daimyo makes perfect sense too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray Singer Posted January 9, 2018 Report Share Posted January 9, 2018 My question was more about the stylistic treatment of the horimono itself. This seems quite different from, for example, the way that the subject matter is treated in such swords as Koryu Kagemitsu, Kanze Masamune, and others of the purported time period. This has a Edo feel to it, to my eyes. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Surfson Posted January 9, 2018 Report Share Posted January 9, 2018 I accept your impression of this Ray. I just bought a book on horimono (which is back home in Chicago) and have yet to delve into it. I originally agreed with your sense that the horimono is late, and I suppose that is supported not only by the lack of polishing wear on it but also the stylistic theme. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
martin hornak Posted January 11, 2018 Report Share Posted January 11, 2018 Please what is the result of sword designation is it real sword from hasebe name ?? Thank you , Kind regards Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray Singer Posted January 11, 2018 Report Share Posted January 11, 2018 I don't know that we will have this answer unless the sword was purchased by a member, resubmitted and the owner chooses to share the results. Please what is the result of sword designation is it real sword from hasebe name ?? Thank you , Kind regards Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacques D. Posted January 12, 2018 Report Share Posted January 12, 2018 My question was more about the stylistic treatment of the horimono itself. This seems quite different from, for example, the way that the subject matter is treated in such swords as Koryu Kagemitsu, Kanze Masamune, and others of the purported time period. This has a Edo feel to it, to my eyes. I would be glad you explain to us how you make the difference between an Edo feel and a Koto feel if, effectively, there is one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray Singer Posted January 12, 2018 Report Share Posted January 12, 2018 I am happy to give you my impression Jacques. Others may have a different perspective. It seems that later (Edo) horimono has a more ornate feeling, stylistically. The horimono-shi may be going to greater effort to represent the subject matter in a realistic way, with greater density of detail (smaller, more numerous scales, etc) and more effort to give the horimono dimensionality. The body of the dragon appears rounder, the head more turned towards the viewer. The horimono of Edo period artists such as Tadatsuna, Sadakazu, Nobuhide, Yoshitane, etc seem quite different to my eyes from Nambokucho / late Kamakura executions of the same subject matter. I have attached a few examples. Note that generally the earlier horimono shows the dragon's head more in profile. With the exception of Koryu Kagemitsu, these examples are from the early Soshu school. The last photo is of the horimono being discussed here. 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray Singer Posted January 12, 2018 Report Share Posted January 12, 2018 I was trying not to be overly critical, but to my eyes this horimono is very poorly done and reeks of late work. Look at the execution of the face of the dragon. The perspective is inconsistent and distorted. The overall expression is comical. The face, upper jaw and teeth are all going in their own direction (buck-toothed comes to mind). Again, in post #27 I asked to see an original, Nambokucho period horimono which looks like this. I certainly have never seen one from the Soshu jo-ko which is similar. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini Posted January 12, 2018 Report Share Posted January 12, 2018 Again, in post #27 I asked to see an original, Nambokucho period horimono which looks like this. I certainly have never seen one from the Soshu jo-ko which is similar. Yesss. Now a reply is due... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Surfson Posted January 12, 2018 Report Share Posted January 12, 2018 A happy dragon! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PNSSHOGUN Posted January 13, 2018 Report Share Posted January 13, 2018 A happy dragon! The engraver might have been a bit too happy on Sake when he did this one. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheGermanBastard Posted January 13, 2018 Report Share Posted January 13, 2018 I was trying not to be overly critical, but to my eyes this horimono is very poorly done and reeks of late work. Look at the execution of the face of the dragon. The perspective is inconsistent and distorted. The overall expression is comical. The face, upper jaw and teeth are all going in their own direction (buck-toothed comes to mind). Again, in post #27 I asked to see an original, Nambokucho period horimono which looks like this. I certainly have never seen one from the Soshu jo-ko which is similar. horimono.jpg hello Ray, well I woulf feel more comfortable with just poorly as there are much much much worse Horimonos out there for sure Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacques D. Posted January 13, 2018 Report Share Posted January 13, 2018 delete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacques D. Posted January 13, 2018 Report Share Posted January 13, 2018 Ray, Thanks for trying to explain even if you are not convincing. What do you think about these horimono and which one may have (to your eyes) an Edo feel ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheGermanBastard Posted January 13, 2018 Report Share Posted January 13, 2018 the dude in image 3 looks late Edo. On the others I would not dare to make a call Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacques D. Posted January 13, 2018 Report Share Posted January 13, 2018 I was trying not to be overly critical, but to my eyes this horimono is very poorly done and reeks of late work. Look at the execution of the face of the dragon. The perspective is inconsistent and distorted. The overall expression is comical. The face, upper jaw and teeth are all going in their own direction (buck-toothed comes to mind). Again, in post #27 I asked to see an original, Nambokucho period horimono which looks like this. I certainly have never seen one from the Soshu jo-ko which is similar. horimono.jpg This sword is not from Nanbokucho jidai Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray Singer Posted January 13, 2018 Report Share Posted January 13, 2018 None strike me as being obviously a work of an Edo horimono-shi. Photos 1 and 5 appear in the style of horimono from the Bizen school like what you would see in a sword from Katsumitsu and Munemitsu. Photo 2 is the Soshu Yukimitsu tanto I shared before. Photo 3 is the Fudo Masamune. Photo 7 is Bizen Tomomitsu. The others may be koto as well. Photo 4 is a fragment and I'll hold off offering an opinion. I am not a horimono expert so if I am mistaken, so be it... What do you think about these horimono and which one may have (to your eyes) an Edo feel ? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheGermanBastard Posted January 13, 2018 Report Share Posted January 13, 2018 Oh! I was way off with my assumption. Interesting subject! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Surfson Posted January 13, 2018 Report Share Posted January 13, 2018 Jacques, are any of them late? Most of the dragons appear to have significant polishing wear on their bodies, with scales worn or missing... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheGermanBastard Posted January 13, 2018 Report Share Posted January 13, 2018 Even a Meiji or Gendai era blade may show significant polishing marks on the Horimono. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacques D. Posted January 13, 2018 Report Share Posted January 13, 2018 Jacques, are any of them late? Most of the dragons appear to have significant polishing wear on their bodies, with scales worn or missing... No wear, all are in excellent condition. It's just the way they are engraved Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray Singer Posted January 13, 2018 Report Share Posted January 13, 2018 No, they are not all in excellent condition (if that is meant to say untouched). Some clearly do show wear from past polish and were not simply made this way. What are the answers to your quiz Jacques? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacques D. Posted January 14, 2018 Report Share Posted January 14, 2018 No, they are not all in excellent condition (if that is meant to say untouched). Some clearly do show wear from past polish and were not simply made this way. What are the answers to your quiz Jacques? PSX_20180113_181020.jpg 1 & 4 are Soshu Hirotsugu, 7 Tomomitsu. Absolutely no wear on this one just the way of engraving, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacques D. Posted January 14, 2018 Report Share Posted January 14, 2018 Ray, In you first comment you said :"Looking at the style and condition of the horimono, it looks quite late to my eyes and I would assume it to be ato-bori. Notice that there is absolutely no wear to the horimono from past polish," You are wrong about ato-bori (ie no wear does'nt mean ato-bori), i know what man has to look at if he wants to see if an horimono is ato-bori or not and this can be possible only with sword in hand. It's impossible to see if an horimono is ato-bori or not based on pictures even excellent ones. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jean Posted January 14, 2018 Report Share Posted January 14, 2018 As you just stated, In the same way, you cannot assume that an horimono has absolutelly no wear unless you have the sword in hand. All horimono show wear as each polishing remove metal. No one can judge the wear of an Horimono because to do this, one must have had access to the blade before its first polish. All depends on the depth of the original horimono. That’s simple common sense 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Surfson Posted January 14, 2018 Report Share Posted January 14, 2018 Jacques, if that horimono you illustrated is not worn, then it was intentionally carved to appear worn from years of polish. Otherwise, there would be no good reason to carve a dragon with no head, in my view. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini Posted January 14, 2018 Report Share Posted January 14, 2018 As you just stated, In the same way, you cannot assume that an horimono has absolutelly no wear unless you have the sword in hand. All horimono show wear as each polishing remove metal. No one can judge the wear of an Horimono because to do this, one must have had access to the blade before its first polish. All depends on the depth of the original horimono. That’s simple common sense Ditto And about the style and quality of carving (the second half of the matter quiet forgot in the last posts) none of the examples offered by our generous Jacques is even close to the one of the original question less , maybe, the one that was (intentionally?) post without head which orientation and style were things that contributed to make Ray's feeling.Out of curiosity would be interesting to have the whole picture and supposed period of making (nobody can be sure about this). More you can't compare Fudo Miyoo (image n.3) with a dragon in this topic for the same stylistic reasons Ray quoted. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray Singer Posted January 15, 2018 Report Share Posted January 15, 2018 My last post in this topic. The Yukimitsu was on display for public view as part of the Masamune exhibition. It is a piece from the Imperial collection, and while a beautiful tanto, it has sustained its share of past polishes and shows degradation mid-blade where the hamon becomes somewhat thin. The top of the horimono is level with the ji, both the areas of the horimono which appear worn and the ji itself would be making contact with the polishing stones at the same time. I just don't see how one can argue that horimono is 'made that way' as it shows every evidence of degradation due to past restoration, and the uppermost sections of the horimono show exactly the losses one would expect based on the height of the ji itself. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacques D. Posted January 15, 2018 Report Share Posted January 15, 2018 Jacques, if that horimono you illustrated is not worn, then it was intentionally carved to appear worn from years of polish. Otherwise, there would be no good reason to carve a dragon with no head, in my view. No, just photographic arctifact all plain or slightly curved surfaces look like that. Look at this one by Umetada Myoju. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacques D. Posted January 15, 2018 Report Share Posted January 15, 2018 Worn horimono https://www.aoijapan.com/img/sword/2017/17448-2.jpg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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