mareo1912 Posted December 13, 2017 Report Posted December 13, 2017 Hey guys, Found a really nice blade which is declared as Hasebe Kunishige. The blade is very nice and the Jada is stunning in my eyes, but what do you think about the attribution? Marco
TheGermanBastard Posted December 13, 2017 Report Posted December 13, 2017 At foremost I would like to think what the attribution says - depending on who made it. Does it have a current NTHK or NBTHK paper?
vajo Posted December 13, 2017 Report Posted December 13, 2017 The blade looks mindblowing. What a nice horimono! For me it looks like hasebe school.
Ray Singer Posted December 13, 2017 Report Posted December 13, 2017 Looking at the style and condition of the horimono, it looks quite late to my eyes and I would assume it to be ato-bori. Notice that there is absolutely no wear to the horimono from past polish, and compare with the condition of horimono which are original to the time period. 2
CSM101 Posted December 13, 2017 Report Posted December 13, 2017 I would recomment Darcy´s article ""Green papers = no papers" Uwe G.
Ray Singer Posted December 13, 2017 Report Posted December 13, 2017 My impression it that someone put a lot of effort (gone a bit over the top) to make the nakago appear old. There are some unusual mekugi-ana present. A few examples for comparison. https://www.aoijapan.net/?s=hasebe&x=0&y=0 http://www.nihonto.com/hasebe-kunishige-and-hasebe-kuninobu-%E9%95%B7%E8%B0%B7%E9%83%A8%E5%9B%BD%E9%87%8D%EF%BC%86%E9%95%B7%E8%B0%B7%E9%83%A8%E5%9B%BD%E4%BF%A1%E3%80%80/
Ray Singer Posted December 13, 2017 Report Posted December 13, 2017 Machi-okuri? My gut feeling when I saw the photos were ubu and late work. I'll hold off on further opinion pending better photos... Is this not mune-machi Ray? 1
Shugyosha Posted December 13, 2017 Report Posted December 13, 2017 Something seems off about the sugata to me. It seems too slender and the point too small by comparison to other Hasebe work. Here's a link to a tanto that Darcy had by Kunishige which also has a picture of Hasebe Heshikiri for comparason of the sugata: http://www.nihonto.ca/hasebe-kunishige-2/index.html Also here's another Hasebe blade that Darcy had for sale: http://www.nihonto.ca/index.html But that said, it is a small sample so it might not tell the full story.
CSM101 Posted December 13, 2017 Report Posted December 13, 2017 Here you can find the sword in question: https://www.jauce.com/auction/e254918760 Uwe G.
mareo1912 Posted December 13, 2017 Author Report Posted December 13, 2017 Thanks Uwe, was putting in the link right when "a new reply was added plopped up" The file marks on the nakago are pretty good visible, that seems unusual to me as well
vajo Posted December 13, 2017 Report Posted December 13, 2017 Gentleman i think when a honorable member of the board ask for thoughts about a sword and don't post a link, we should respect his unwritten will don't post any further informations. I see that here some times and i think it is not very nice to search around behind the ask. Thats my thoughts. 2
TheGermanBastard Posted December 13, 2017 Report Posted December 13, 2017 attribution is 99% not correct
Jean Posted December 13, 2017 Report Posted December 13, 2017 What is the price of an Hasebe Kunishige daito? 430 000¥? 1
Gordon Sanders Posted December 14, 2017 Report Posted December 14, 2017 why are the mekugi-ana shaped like this?
TheGermanBastard Posted January 7, 2018 Report Posted January 7, 2018 Because a message board is about posting? 1
PNSSHOGUN Posted January 7, 2018 Report Posted January 7, 2018 Nakago looks like my nice sweater after the moths got to it.
Surfson Posted January 8, 2018 Report Posted January 8, 2018 This is an interesting thread. I quite like the sword and find it to be very attractive, and the Kanzan Sato sayagaki looks ok at first glance. If I had interest in the blade, I would want to see if Kanzan had any comments about the horimono or the moth eaten nakago. I love the horimono but agree with Ray that it looks quite late. My thimble full of knowledge about Hasebe Kunishige suggests that such a hamon as this, perhaps including some hitatsura, would be consistent with Kunishige and I would like to hear the basis of opinions that this is a bad attribution. It is also of note that it sold for over 2 million yen, so at least two people thought it was well worth having. Having said all of that, I am supremely suspicious of any blade with a big name or attribution on it that comes out of Japan with only green papers and no modern NBTHK shinsa results. I also am not wild about the nakago with several aborted attempts at drilling ana and what looks like a fairly recent filing and perhaps patination. Chris mentioned that we should not reveal the source of photos coming from active auctions in deference to the original poster asking for advice. I am of two minds about this and it might make for an interesting thread (or combative one, I don't know) to discuss this to get some kind of consensus view. 1
Jacques D. Posted January 8, 2018 Report Posted January 8, 2018 . I love the horimono but agree with Ray that it looks quite late. I kindly desagree. this is not a proof, there are many examples extant where horimono look quite new and are very old.
Surfson Posted January 8, 2018 Report Posted January 8, 2018 Jacques, we are talking about a Nanbokucho smith if the attribution is correct. 600 years' worth of polishing would typically be enough to wear down most horimono I would think. I would love to see some examples of nanbokucho blades with original horimono that are not obviously polished down. Granted, things like bohi or other very deep cuts (e.g. some bonji or ken) can survive mostly intact. Can you share some with us? Cheers, Bob
martin hornak Posted January 8, 2018 Report Posted January 8, 2018 sorry my previois coment , why somebody started this post ....i was wrong sorry , very good post. As my orign study is metalurgy in shool i had experienced by samurai old swords very unusual phenomenon,. Japanese sword metalurgy involves many diferent mixtures of materials , or even only one metal,. Pressure during creating basic materials inside of metal have non complex character ,. as well final sword and tempered in wild fire . Even non Japanese metals can in old chracter create impressive colours , and tempered boundaries,. Character of this shool and time producing this sword supose to have its metal colour , and character of final tempering elements on sword ,. you can compare ,. for this is necesary to see swords in hand closeup diferent reflection light day light and electric light to make final research. Usually metal of certain periods have its sensitivity and structural changes that togishi polisher can recognize just by using stone to detect what hapens to the sword ,. talking about old swords . Tempering style have significant result , more tempering atempts on one sword can produce character of misleading character ,. difficult to detect , by whole image , but in very detail you can find diferences in metal that have been tempered and retempered ,. Character of whole image speaks . Individual proportions why is this on there and that on there is questions that brings key to misterious way to recogniye truth. On this sword boundaries of konie deki are very spread ower like powder sugar , kind of toran hamon apears , but this style detects diferent shool or even very diferent from usuall character of sertain shool that is observed ,. Kinsuji sharp strokes like with smal brush are missing here , the sharper character of original hamon character for this shool is a bit changed ... jigane metal oily darkich colour is changed to smoothly dry and gray apearence, acompanied by jinie aranie yubashiri can be observed even after saiha retemper, not a problem .....especially in old sword metalurgical oroginal i say first tempering makes sword fresh , with activities like fruit that is naturally grown on sun and ready for eat ....in old metals , the original jinie yubashiri aranie have its apearence that carbon content have its strenght and power like colours , the kinsuji and ucuri with the smooth chikei can be rapidly changing the smooth or sharp activity or disapear , especially jigane the apearence of jihada its hardenes , texture apearence can be easyly changing by tempering treatments , and clear original natural chikei will disapear completely after retemper attempt ,,saiha . There is question also why such changes was done , in old days swords was not thrown away after burn disaster or warr fighting, sword was recycled and reborn, the elements as spirit for weapon and using weaponry was most important, the moderrn (( ORIGINAL )) research od old Japanese metalurgi can bring many missleading ways for observing samurai history and the soul , the sword . Old swords sometimes after battle was reshaped and rehardened , there was not such time as today , with questions , like what hapens to jigane or why the hamon changed ??? ,,, in old weaponry in Japan the sugata was much stronger in great amount of swords that todays public can not imagine , the old swords have been much more thicker and stronger, there was common way numbers of reshaping on one strong sword ,. Indeed not all can observe numbers of great old swords in hand to make feeling its power or todays comparison . Then difficulties to research such swords where young horimono was added to old retempered sword . But stil in great aperence and power . In old days such sword will be as much as great battle sword !!! Imagination about great old sword that keeps its original names and sugata is diferent story when treasured individual peaces was selected to be not used anymore in battles but was simply too high in spiritual and historical values , even used swords with strong sugata and some battle marks ! Many designed treasures are saiha and known saiha , or simply burn sword , but old battle swords stil beautiful apearence , is too much to get truth from the real old days, . the best is to see and compare metal elements in hand to get your eyes and soul ripped of from body like touching the very sky and cosmos or have deep ocean in hands . and feel blessed From historical sword researches of old clasified families to apricing swords in old days there is many diferences even in one shool or style of swordmaking , natural element . To detect what this sword really is is simply not anough to see photos !!! even if the sword is on certain level od modern economical level its price today , , Few Hasebe blades to see on internet photos , is described also in quality photos or the not quality photos, you can find good quality photos of hasebe blades as was menshioned abowe in diferent posts members Now not talking about the nakago horimono , only metal research first, Challenge of nakago making and horimono making is very original research, the very first apearence usually done by visual elements like sugata nakago any changes there and there but the metal in important. This is my research i trys many times that brings many questions to the sword owners . Kind regards. 2
Jacques D. Posted January 9, 2018 Report Posted January 9, 2018 Humm http://www.emuseum.jp/detail/100178/000/000?mode=simple&d_lang=fr&s_lang=fr&word=kagemitsu+bizen&class=&title=&c_e=®ion=&era=¢ury=&cptype=&owner=&pos=1&num=1
Ray Singer Posted January 9, 2018 Report Posted January 9, 2018 I would very much like to see an example of a Nambokucho-period horimono on this style. 1
Jacques D. Posted January 9, 2018 Report Posted January 9, 2018 Check Tomomitsu (Bizen) for example or if my memory good the Fudô Masamune even if it's older, there are both good examples of very well preserved horimono.
NihontoEurope Posted January 9, 2018 Report Posted January 9, 2018 About the horimono. It's really a non-discussion or a non-debate since the final comment/question will be: When was the horimono added? So, it will be an ongoing argument regardless if this is seen on any cutting instrument of any year or era. Not taking any side in the discussion. I've read topics like this before... 2
Jean Posted January 9, 2018 Report Posted January 9, 2018 All depends of where is the horimono located after the O suriage. If on the nakago, polishes won’t have any influence on it. Furthermore, some of the top smith blades after Osuriage were kept in Daimyo collections so less entitled to polish.
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