Learning To Judge A Blade

[vajo]

I have some really problems to judge a blade in age.

 

Hamfish shows today an ebay offer of a Gunto with "old" blade. The sword is sold, but i tried today to find out if this blade was a gendaito, a shinshinto or older blade. I didn't know.

The sword had some flaws, that is not typical for wartime gendaito. The shape is typical showa, in my eyes. But the nakago has a deep patina.

 

What is your suggestion about the period of this blade. If you could explain why?

 

http://vi.vipr.ebaydesc.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItemDescV4&item=222713734302&t=1510300807000&tid=10&category=66841&seller=koushuya&excSoj=1&excTrk=1&lsite=0&ittenable=false&domain=ebay.com&descgauge=1&cspheader=1&oneClk=1&secureDesc=0

 

I hope to learn something. 

 

 

 

 

[Alex A]

As a start, look at the Hamachi and compare whats left of it to what you will see on a more modern blade, an indicator of a blade seeing a number of polishes.

 

Ps Chris, could do with dimensions, hamon appears to run into nakago.

 

original or not, the last time that nakago was messed with was no older than 1700 approx., but likely newer, judging by condition and patina.

 

5MIN age opinion, love EBAY, not

[christianmalterre]

Dear Chris,

 

didn´t you keep the Solingen book?

( blue one)

 

Michael H. did well explain about some of the controverses...

Gunther T. did the work but!

 

Christian

[vajo]

True yes.

But i have problems to understand when one or two things not like in the books. Is not so easy to explain.

 

I think this blade looks very similar to a showa blade. But the quality is not like a wartime blade. The nakago looks different from a shin shinto blade, but its not older like shin shinto. Hmm, its difficult. Maybe there is nothing important. A Nihonto from a unknown smith. A weapon not more? I would say now, forged between 1850 and 1900.

 

 

 

That Nihonto theme is so difficult. 

[christianmalterre]

there is a classic " temper-crack" here.....!

and! this guy is sorrowly fatal! !

nice boy!

bad smith!

 

least, this picture looks like this....

 

shure to have a discussion on such?

 

me

[Alex A]

Sticking with 1700ish.

 

Chris, you have good blades like the Tadakuni (that I want back ), why look at this?

 

This is a ? blade.

[vajo]

I was looking because hamfish said gendaito and i bet older. The sword was sold, but i wanted to know what it is, because i think that was a good offer. The koshirae is very good for a gunto and had some worth. That was sold for 1150 Dollar. I was shortly to jump in only for the koshirae. 

 

I had a few gunto Alex.

 

Maybe someone from the board has bought it. Would be nice if he could tell.

[seattle1]

Hello:

 Do not despair as judging age is hardly easy and images from books can be helpful, but only barely. Age involves all the descriptive features of a sword starting first with shape, and then all the rest. Weight is rarely mentioned, however aside from the effects of some blades having been resharpened, perhaps many times, thus suffering from weight loss, it is a helpful guide. The foregoing are hard to integrate into the judgement  mind set without hands on study.

 Some years ago, decades actually, a friend in Seattle had a blade that he submitted three (!) times for shinsa: first result, shinshinto; next shinto; finally Yamato and Juyo Token. I don't recall the groups other than the NBTHK, but it was not the only shinsa group one went to even then. My friend was convinced that the early calls were wrong, and that paid off! 

 Arnold F.

[Alex A]

I was looking because hamfish said gendaito and i bet older. 

 

 

 

I'm with you on that one.

[paulb]

Sorry but from what I can see I dont think this is very old. The patina on the nakago looks constructed rather than developed over time. Overall shape suggests gunto and the finish of the bade  looks Showa  but difficult to judge with this polish and images. I dont see anything that suggests older.

[vajo]

Thank you Arnold.

This sword was sold from a Japanese dealer. And i know that the Japanese seller know what they have. This sword is nothing more worth that the money which was sold and i think it was sold for the koshirae and the blade was a gift.

But i didn't belive that the blade is worse. It has flaws, it is mumei but there is no serious damage seen. The hamon looks nice. I'm a little sad not to buy it.

[Alex A]

Just looking over the blade again, i see hada and i think i can see activity within the hamon, always difficult using photos.

 

Dont know much about Guntos (or anything else  ) and what was stamped and what wasn't.

[Ray Singer]

Looks to my eyes like a large kitae-ware. The uplifted layer of steel, separated from the body of the blade, shows better when the image size is increased.

 

 

there is a classic " temper-crack" here.....?

least, this picture looks like this....

 

shure to have a discussion on such?

 

me

 

[paulb]

Hi Alex

I think your eyes must be way better than mine!!

still dont think it looks very old but in current polish it is difficult to say how it is constructed or hardened (maybe once I get my right eye back working propely I might have a better idea :-) )

[Alex A]

I could be wrong paul, not much to go off, could just be marks on the blade. Ive made it bigger and added a shaky arrow.

[vajo]

I see that such a sword is not easy to judge. I hope I'm right that this is a traditionel, with tamahagene forged sword. Otherwise i must start new with my lessons in nihonto?

I see activities in the hada and the hamon.

 

 

And the sword is in Japan. I can't belive that a showa-to could be overlived and has a registration paper.

[PNSSHOGUN]

My initial thoughts were late Edo-Meiji era.

[ROKUJURO]

Looks to my eyes like a large kitae-ware. The uplifted layer of steel, separated from the body of the blade......

Yes, that is correct. Not a tempering KIZU, but a forging/fire-welding fault, which tells something about the quality and about the fact, that it is not signed. The smith knew exactly what he had produced!

 

If there is really HADA to be seen, the blade might not be GENDAI, but more late EDO. It is difficult to say only with photos.

[Alex A]

Chris, don't know much about these fittings, would they belong to an officer?

[vajo]

Hello Jean,

some pictures from the ebay offer.

 

 

Hi Alex, yes it is an officers sword

 

The Koshirae was expensive at the time. So i think that sword was given to him from the family. 

It's surely not a  quality sword. It has ware and some openings. But i bet it was important to the officer to bring it to war.

 

[Alex A]

Hi Chris, that's what I was wondering about.

 

I would ASSUME an officer would have a far better quality sword.

 

It crossed my mind that this sword may not be original to this koshirae, but just a thought, don't know.

 

Then it crossed my mind that why would an officer carry such a low end sword?, unless it was handed down, as you point out.

[SwordGuyJoe]

Times were tough, officers weren’t making a ton of money and keep in mind that it was a rule to carry a sword. So I’m certain, even if an officer could afford a nice sword, there were those that didn’t appreciate it as the art it could be, so why spend more than necessary on something that equates to a tool? That and there were poor officers that didn’t come from wealthy families that needed a sword. Some were loaned swords - as discussed here, but those who were not, had to buy something.

[vajo]

 

Then it crossed my mind that why would an officer carry such a low end sword?, unless it was handed down, as you point out.

Alex i didn't think that this sword is low end. It is a true Nihonto. Older than two generations. I would think the officer who carried it was proud.

And it is much better than the most signed showa-to 

[Alex A]

Hi Chris, I could have worded that better. I didn't mean that you stated it was "low end", I meant I agreed with you that it may have been handed down.

 

It was me that stated "low end", flaws, mumei, etc

 

Maybe the owner was proud, we will never know.

[Alex A]

Times were tough, officers weren’t making a ton of money and keep in mind that it was a rule to carry a sword. So I’m certain, even if an officer could afford a nice sword, there were those that didn’t appreciate it as the art it could be

 

Sometimes I need to remember that not everyone over the years thinks like us lot , why did he not have a Dotanuki or a Tadayoshi??    

[vajo]

Haha Alex you right.

Maybe such a blade was standard in Shinshinto times? When you allways see Mercedes and Rolce Roys you can not belive that a Dacia exists and someone bought it.

[Jim P]

Hi Chris,IMHO, Don't know why you are using this blade to sharpen your skills, paulb has it right "looks Showa" sometimes you have to look at the seller this guy sells a lot of stuff that does not sell in Japan a quick look at the site tells you a lot   If they thought edo they would tell you,what did the add say ?

[Alex A]

He left it open to the buyers imagination by stating "Old", 

 

Description bottom of page

 

 

Age.................. Old

[vajo]

Maybe hi could not judge it as we too. Funny.

[Alex A]

Old is a broad spectrum, I have a pair of "old" socks that are almost 8 years old