I Wonder If You Could Help Me With This Musket....

[redhugster]

Gents,

 

I wonder if you could help me with this musket....

 

I saw it as part of a lot at auction last week (site unseen which is always dangerous) ...but given what I think it is and the other items I gained, I figured it was worth a cheap punt...in short I won the lot for £300

 

It was described as Ottoman empire - which it clearly wasn't even with the fuzzy photo ... so thoughts would be appreciated as to what I have!

 

The musket is 104 cm long and has a bore of 5/8ths of an inch  - .625? (1.6cm) and is of cause percussion rather than matchlock..

 

Many thanks in advance,

 

Jon

[Geraint]

Hi Jon,

 

Looks like you did well.  At first sight I thought this was a conversion from matchlock to percussion but I would have expected to see a cut out in the woodwork at the lock side where the original pan and cover would have been.  The barrel and stock certainly look Japanese and I'm sure someone will chime in with a translation of the kanji and disassembly instructions for you.

 

Is the percussion nipple right in the centre of the breech plug?

 

You might find some interest from this link.  https://www.pinterest.co.uk/worldantiques/western-style-firearms-used-by-samurai/

 

All the best.

[redhugster]

Hi Geraint,

 

Many thanks for your comment above. I shoot a matchlock musket (and other things to international level) so am familiar with these in the matchlock configuration - but when I saw this I was a little intrigued.... and the price was right....

 

I have carefully removed the barrel and below are the resulting photos...

 

Many thanks ! Jon

 

 

 

 

[Bugyotsuji]

The Ink brushwriting with the name of the stockmaker is nicely written, clear and easy to read, as is the name of the Kunitomo barrel maker and the type of barrel construction. Let us know if you want to have a go at decoding it, or if you would prefer one of us to help out.

 

Oh, and the Jinshin Bango along the top of the barrel!

 

Great deal by the way, a steal indeed.

[Brian]

Piers, I suspected it is a conversion from matchlock to percussion. But there is also evidence to the contrary. Can't make up my mind. What are your thoughts?

[Bugyotsuji]

As Geraint points out above, there is no cut-out for any original matchlock pan.

 

I suppose the gun could have had a complete new stock made with the new powerful percussion lock, and the barrel alone could be original...?

[redhugster]

Gents, many thanks for your comments above. I know little / no Japanese, so if you could help decipher the ink and engraved text it would be most appreciated :0)

 

The gun is extremely heavy due to the thick barrel and the stock down to the butt is obviously narrow - would this have been a 'rampart' type gun?

 

I'd be interested in any thoughts really..Date (1860s - 1870's?), place of manufacture, barrel maker, stock maker...anything really that I can build  up a little history on it, and aid some understanding of the piece.

 

I cleaned the barrel out last night and apart from still being loaded (!) the bore is still in really very good condition so whoever has had it for the last x number of years has stored it well.

 

.....I suspect this is a new made barrel rather than a conversion as there are no signs of conversion / removal of the pan and other matchlock features - saying that though the text on the barrel may give a maker, date, location ??? giving further clues?

 

Any assistance is appreciated.

 

Many thanks Jon

[Bugyotsuji]

Well,there is so much to say that by the time I have typed it all someone else may have done the work!

 

Keeping it short, the gunsmith is Kunitomo Hikohachiro Juto, and Kunitomo was perhaps the most famous gunsmithing area in Japan. The long elephant trunk shape of the butt tells us that it is in the Ogino-Ryu style of gunnery, and we know that there was a relationship between Kunitomo and this school.

 

Although the gun looks 'new', this gunsmith was working way back in Keicho. The western percussion system was not introduced to Japan till the late 1820s or 1830s at the earliest, but my feeling is the work on this native gun and the blend and balance with traditional gun styles is so good that it must be later, perhaps the 1850s or 1860s.

 

二重巻張 these four characters ni-ju makibari tell you the barrel was strengthened with a double helix twist of steel bands. To be boasting of double seems a bit early to me when most were later being forged with a three-twist finish. (?)

 

So, was this an old but good condition barrel that was put to new use?

 

The stockmaker is Oshima Kichibei Munemasa who worked in the late Edo Period.

 

The gun was finally registered in 'Fukatsu Ken', (later Oda Ken, now part of Bitchu, Okayama Ken, originally incorporated 1869) in the Jinshin roundup of 1872.

[Bugyotsuji]

PS The ring under the muzzle suggests it must have had an attached swivel metal ramrod, for quick loading, a later feature.  

 

Note that it does not have a thumb flange on the hammer for easy pull-back, which could mean some kind of intermediate between serpentine and western hammer, taking the gun a little backwards towards the 1840s...?

 

I would be interested to hear others' opinions.

[IanB]

Jon,  Piers,  This example, using copper percussion caps, almost certainly post dates those guns that were devised by Katai Kyosuke to use detonating pellets. That type is fully described by Ron Watson on this Board http://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/page/articles.html/_/articles/a-very-rare-teppo-pill-lock-r11. An absolutely similar gun is illustrated in Tairas Sawata's book and I bought yet another for the Royal Armouries Museum's collection. These sophisticated guns had a swivel ramrod, of the type Jon's had, a magazine that dispensed the detonating pellets as well as a lever on the outside of the lockplate that allowed the hammer to be cocked with the right thumb whilst still holding the stock.

Since Perry didn't open Japan until 1853, I would suggest Jon's gun, in its present form, dates towards the end of that decade when percussion caps became available in Japan.

Ian Bottomley

[Peter Bleed]

I have come t this thread very late, but I have found both the thread and the gun very interesting. Clearly lots of Japanese matchlock arms were converted to fire copper caps, but the fact that this was made as a caplock firearm seems very  significant. The Japanese were clearly investigating percussion cap technology. Remember that one of the questions they specifically posed to Admiral Perry was about production of caps. I doubt that there were very many caplock guns in Japanese before the 1850s and that is about when I'd guess this gun was made.

Peter

[redhugster]

Many thanks for the interest and comments above.

 

It looks like it is quite a rare thing then and I'm pleased that I could share it here. I spoke to a friend last night, David Brigden, who used to be chairman of the Muzzle Loading International Committee and he also commented that some matchlock barrels were also converted to bolt action rifles for the first World War - is this correct, seems a bit of a stretch?

 

Is the general feeling that this barrel is older than its current configuration?, it would seem so, from your comments, but am I right in this?....I guess removing the original pan and adding a block with percussion cap is relatively easy given that the internal pressures of the barrel will be the same upon firing.

 

The barrel is in really nice condition and the bore is very good but could someone (briefly) explain the lack of decoration on the woodwork and even a Mon on the barrel. I only ask as every Matcholck I have seen has some form of decoration...this piece looks quite 'functional' in comparison.

 

Jon

[Bugyotsuji]

Yes, I have seen photos of rare examples of old Tanegashima barrels fitted with a bolt action.

 

For military use there would be no point in decorating it, in fact the more sober the better, especially along the top of the barrel where flashing reflections could be a distraction when aiming. Functional ones are more appreciated among reenactment troops in Japan.

 

Westerners looking to take a gun back would generally choose a bright one with flashy decorations, so after the Edo Period there was an industry within Japan to increase the number of gaudy guns for sale. Much was added by willing artisans, including of course a Mon or three to guns for that market. Thus many of the ones we see in the west are as you describe. (Sakai/Sesshu/Osaka 'merchants' guns under 3.5 Monme in ball weight also tended to be highly decorated.)

[redhugster]

Good evening Gents,

 

Following our conversations above I noticed the following bolt action 'conversion' for sale at IMA in America...and thought it may be of interest: 

 

https://www.ima-usa.com/products/original-Japanese-matchlock-tanegashima-converted-to-m-1880-murata-breech-loading-system?variant=5842388779046&trk_msg=A18TCJL2MJ8KF21CR25T9NKCSC&trk_contact=B6KAL9G9CFJLKSD6V5RG414HCK&trk_sid=3957N79BUIRV8C94BRC0I7VSN4&utm_source=Listrak&utm_medium=Email&utm_term=Product&utm_campaign=20171209&utm_content=20171209

 

Jon

[Stephen]

Looks more of a trap door than bolt...really cant tell on cell.

[Bugyotsuji]

A Sakai conversion, an interesting object in its own right, missing some of the inlay, but largely in good condition. Notice how the top of the butt has been shaved off so the action can slide backwards.

[Brian]

Check out Murata bolt action rifle.

Here's another that Google found on Pinterest:

[IanB]

DR. Galeno, late of San Rafael Ca. used to have a gun with a form of snider breech. His was not a conversion but had been made with that system. As I remember the stock furniture was nickel plated - but that may have been done later.

Ian Bottomley

[Peter Bleed]

The issue of how Japan - and other matchlock using communities - modernized in the mid 19th century is a very interesting topic that has much to say about how technology evolves.

I happen to have a matchlock that was modified with the addition of a Murata bolt. I love the suggestion that these changes were somehow linked to WWI! The post card presented below suggests to me that these gun were repurposed as hunting arms.

Peter

[Bugyotsuji]

Peter, the gun in the Hakodate Ainu postcard looks like a smallbore gun being used against bird or very small game. Great photograph!

[Spiridonov]

Are bolster for nipple made as one piece with barrel or dovetailed?

[redhugster]

Hi there,

 

On my musket it is difficult to say as the fit and finish is so tight... it looks to be one piece but as discussed we think the barrel is older than the final form... so I guess dovetailed -just very well by a professional.

 

Jon