Where/how To Buy First Sword?

[Jeffnyc]

Now that I have realized that life is unbearable without owning a katana I am hoping for advice on where/how to purchase one. Unfortunately I missed the auction at Bonham's last week (only 4 days into this) so I am wondering

 

What if any web-dealers can be trusted? Are the prices listed negotiable? Are they fair? Do I get a 2nd or 3rd opinion and if so who from? Should I avoid buying online and just wait until the next local auction? Are there any online auctions that are worth looking at?

 

I am looking for a Koto sword in the 10-25K range which will hopefully hold its value (so that when my wife sells it for my estate she won't be too irate)

 

 

[PNSSHOGUN]

If that is your price range then you have alot of options, I would try Darcy over at https://www.nihonto.ca/  as a jump off point.

[IJASWORDS]

Is Jeff your name?? All good questions. We probably all started collecting by rushing into our first purchase, and regretting it later. SO.. get some good books on the subject, and research your chosen field of collecting. You have a BIG budget, don't blow it.

John gave you a good site above, and I have only good words for samuraisword.com. Yes, most sellers will do a deal. So study/find/negotiate/buy. Neil.

[nagamaki - Franco]

Collecting nihontō – what, how and who?

 

http://www.nihontomessageboard.com/articles/Collecting.pdf

 

 

 

What if any web-dealers can be trusted? Are the prices listed negotiable? Are they fair? Do I get a 2nd or 3rd opinion and if so who from? Should I avoid buying online and just wait until the next local auction? Are there any online auctions that are worth looking at?

 

I am looking for a Koto sword in the 10-25K range which will hopefully hold its value (so that when my wife sells it for my estate she won't be too irate)

 

1. There are any number of reputable dealers http://www.japaneseswordindex.com/sites2.htm , but, it's as much if not more of the buyer knowing and understanding what it is that they are doing. And that just takes time, study, books, shows, lectures, looking at a lot of good swords, kantei, kantei, kantei.

 

2. yes, usually.

 

3. back to answer #1.

 

4. yes, and yes.

 

5. imho, generally speaking auctions are for the experienced. There's no harm in looking, land mines come with bidding.

 

Your budget should allow you to buy a very nice sword. How nice, full value, still needs to be answered. 

 

Take your time.

[Hoshi]

I can't recommend Darcy at nihonto.ca enough, he's a great guy and will advise you wisely. Even if he hasn't a sword for you on his website he can find one. He will do a lot to help new collectors avoid mistakes. It's a landmine hobby for newcomers. 

[Shamsy]

Congratulations on doing the sensible thing and seeking the advice to start with. Otherwise you could be another ‘I bought this rusty wakizashi on eBay, what is it?’ story. To but a katana, I think you've come to the most helpful and knowledgeable mob on the wide net. Good luck.

[vajo]

Jeff you have made a decission to spent a lot of money for your first sword.

I think don't do it.

Because you can't know what you like.

If you wan't later to sell a sword beyond $10.000 you must have a enough knowledge to find a collector who trust you.

 

Why you don't start with a good quality sword from Aoi Art?

You can make your experience with handling and care of a sword. And i bet that you will have more in the future.

 

For example: https://www.aoijapan.com/katana-bishu-osafune-sukesada

[Marius]

Aoi won't offer the advice that Darcy will offer. With that budget (especially at the higher end) Darcy is the choice. He has a stellar reputation and knows his stuff. He will advise you on the resale value.

[Hoshi]

Furthermore, you made a point about the sword holding value. As a good heuristic, the higher you go (provided you maximize quality and scarcity for a given budget which is the essence of collectability) - the more the likely it is that the piece will hold value over time. With a 25k budget, you could go for a tier-2 koto maker. For instance, a student under one of the masamune Juttetsu. 

 

In other words, in terms of value preservation, it's better to have one 25k swords than two 12.5k swords (all else being equal). The distribution of sword rarity/quality follows an exponential distribution while the prices correlate but not nearly with the same exponent. 

[Jussi Ekholm]

Hold off the urge to buy. Get into local sword club meetings, meet people and see some swords. Spend some time thinking what you want to buy and why.

 

http://www.ny-tokenkai.org/ny-tokenkai.org/New_York_Token_Kai.html

[Marius]

Jussi, that is an excellent advice for people with lower budgets. But with $25k you can buy an excellent sword, which will be a good investment. After you have it, your knowledge can grow up to the point where you can appreciate it.

 

Also, and forgive me my bluntness... most of us (I am not an exception, of course) have not the faintest idea what a good sword is and why it is good. Yes, we are self-styled "experts" admiring a "wonderful hada" or this or that hamon and this or that activity (the more kinsuji the better, etc).

 

But when it comes to judging the quality of steel, we have no clue. How many times have we heard something like "this is a wonderful hada" and "that is an excellent hamon" and "many activities, with profuse this and that".

 

While hada and hamon seem essential for kantei and activities are interesting, it seems that it is in fact the steel that matters. Like in Yasutusgu retempering Kamakura masterpieces and wondering why the retempered swords came up better than those forged by himself (a legend, for granted, but with a grain of truth).

 

Please, don't ask me why so many Kamakura swords are masterpieces. I have no idea. Must be the steel, no? For it's certainly not the hada or the hamon, by which we judge "quality".

 

Now, I am waiting for the flak, apologies for hijacking the thread. 

[Jussi Ekholm]

There is no doubt that Darcy, Andy, Fred, Mike etc. great US dealers can hook you up with great sword for 25k budget and offer their expertise in the field along with the package.

 

I assume you want a sword in koshirae? Something signed, papered in good condition and with nice koshirae is perfectly doable and will be a package you will enjoy. With a budget like that I am sure a sword to your liking will easily pop up.

[Jussi Ekholm]

I personally think that many Heian & Kamakura pieces are masterpieces due to their age and historical signifigance. That is just my personal view as a historical collector. I don't stress about quality but focus on history. Then when you get lots of history & quality together you will get a masterpiece.

 

I am no swordsman nor an engineer who knows scientifical stuff but I do not think there will be a huge performance difference in combat situation between a well made Kamakura period sword or a well made sword that is made today. I believe with modern knowledge the good swordsmiths of today might generally make swords that outperform many oid masterpieces in combat purposes. However they will never have the 600-700+ years of history behind them, and it must be understood how different the knowledge was back then, so the level of swordmaking was highly impressive. In my view lots of fame etc. comes from romantical viewing and cherishing the history. However I feel that it is slightly unfair towards smiths that worked during later periods and made good swords too. Skilled old smiths already had legendary fame during old times, while new smiths always had to prove themselves.

 

In reality sword should be good if it cuts well, holds up for use and is good for you to use, meaning it fits you. Of course most of us collectors don't judge swords by same criteria then old fighters did.

[Marius]

Jussi, I agree 100%. Modern steel wins. However, comparing modern pieces to antiques is not fair.

 

We have a body of nihonto, ranging from 1100s to 1800s and within that body we can make comparisons. Ideally our comparisions should be free from romantic notions of age and history. However, any comparison is impeded by the simple fact that while you can (though nobody will condone it) destroy a shinshinto piece in an extreme test, you won't do that to an Awataguchi sword (for obvious reasons, value being the most important one). 

 

The criteria of samurai who depended on their blades quality are still valid as they were in the 14th or 16th century. We just can't test them.

[Katsujinken]

Lots of good advice in this thread. I saw in your new members post you are in NYC. Definitely join the NY Token Kai.

 

As for Bonhams, you honestly didn’t miss much, and as others have said, auctions are filled with land mines (and believe me this one had a few – at least one of which someone unfortunately stepped on!).

 

Mike Yamasaki or Darcy won’t steer you wrong. Spend as much as you can reasonably afford right now on a quality sword that either of them recommends and you will not be disappointed. Better to have one top quality sword than many mediocre blades.

 

But then: STUDY STUDY STUDY. A $20,000+ sword is wasted on someone who does not study nihonto in order to truly understand what they have.

[vajo]

On the picture are 3 swords from AOI Art, one is around $2.500 Dollar, one $8.900  and the last over $35.000 

I could not say surley whitch one is $35k worth.

 

[paulb]

nor could I from that image.

[vajo]

Sorry i load it up as big file, but the site make it small. 

[Guest Rayhan]

Dear Jeff

 

I am just going to leave this here (expecting a little flak but that is OK).

 

I am guessing you are in the USA, NYC? So, I will respond according to that. You will get a lot of great advice here as a new buyer and at all times keep an open mind and remember that bias (I am no less bias as you will see) is going to be part of any recommendation.

 

1) Buy what you love, a sword that really speaks to you in every way

 

2) Buy as an investment, always.

 

3) Collect with a purpose. Is it a single sword collection, are you going for Gokaden eventually, are you going for Yamato's 5, etc? Read Darcy's blog on collecting with a purpose 

 

https://www.nihonto.ca/ha/?p=136#more-136

 

In order to achieve this, you will need to remember that if you buy from the US dealers there will be a good markup applied and especially at the price range you are looking at. However, residing in the US means you will dodge shipping if buying from elsewhere. If you have this kind of money to invest in a sword then my advice would be go to Japan, hands down the best way to achieve 1 and 2. You are putting a lot of money into this so maximize your selection. If you go to Japan in November, you will be able to see the Dai Token Ichi which is in a few days (you might miss it) but there you will meet all sorts of dealers and swords too. If this is too late then go later but, do go. 

 

If in Japan, you can meet with people like Paul Martin (He does not sell swords but educates) who will show you a massive variety of swords and inevitably you will learn what style speaks to you or many styles. Once you establish the style you can establish the (3) purpose. 

 

Once you know what you want you must look at what you love, when you find what you love you must make sure it is marriage material, especially if you want it to be of value when you pass it on. Things that will help with that is finding at the very minimum a sword papered by the NBTHK (no green papers please) at the Hozon level (minimum). Polish is something to consider and if polished you remove a step that would otherwise be tedious in waiting time. Does it have Koshirae or do you want to add koshirae? Can the Koshirae (if it exists) be papered? Are any of the fittings papered if not the whole koshirae? Now, if the sword is Hozon can it achieve Tokubetsu Hozon and then Juyo, or if you buy Tokubetsu Hozon can it go Juyo, if you buy Juyo can you try for Tokubetsu Juyo? Are the dates for submission around the corner or will you have to wait 1 year or 2 years? Can you wait is the question?

 

Things to remember are:

 

Koto

You can buy healthy Koto and it should be over 70 cm with a Kasane over 0.6 cm (these are examples of healthy Koto, but it depends on age and school/ tradition), width between the Munemachi and Hamachi should be over 3cm (again examples of healthy swords in my opinion). Is it Mumei, as many Koto are Mumei, is it Ubu and Zaimei (it will cost you more than 25K), are there flaws and openings?

 

Shinto

 

No Mumei and get Ubu

 

Shinshinto

 

No Mumei and Zaimei and UBU!

 

(Again, just my opinion)

 

Dealers

 

I am biased towards Aoi Art Japan in Tokyo. Every sword I own has been purchased from them and Tsuruta (Mr and Mrs) as well as their team have been great guides and mentors for me. They have understood what I am trying to achieve an led me (as far as I am concerned) in the right path.

 

Aoijapan.com

 

-        Tetsugendo.com I recommend for Soshu. Mike is well versed in Soshu den

-        Nihonto.com has a little something for everyone but in your price range it is Bizen

-        Nihonto.ca in your range but Darcy is a top tier specialist so Bizen to the upper max and even if it is another tradition the swords are ultimate swords not entry

-        Aoi has everything and no matter what the people on NMB say the Tsuruta’s will guide you if you know 1, 2, 3.

-        There are others and are listed on the NMB but in your price range – Spread your wings.

 

To end with an example, I purchased a Koto, Bizen Omiya with Tokubetsu Hozon papers from Aoi Art at Tsuruta sama’s recommendation (I shall not say how much I paid but the range was over 15 and under 20K USD) I then sent it in for Juyo and as expected and according to his guidance it passed. I am now happier and richer for listening, but to follow that you need to know 1,2,3.

 

Rayhan

[Jeffnyc]

Thank you all for your informative responses. I appreciate all of the advice.

 

I will contact Darcy and seek his counsel. I'll try to learn as much as possible prior to making a purchase.

 

I saw the website for NY Token Kai and I will try to attend their next meeting (although, as Groucho Marx said, I would never join a club that would have someone like me for a member).

 

I think I want a sword in koshirae - is this the way to go?

 

Given my extremely limited knowledge, I want a sword that is old, historically significant, expertly polished and beautiful. And of course sharp enough to carve my Thanksgiving turkey (joke).

 

Jeff

[Brian]

Before you buy, spend some time with the NY collectors. They will guide you, and let you look at some good stuff before you decide what does it for you. Seek out Gabe in NY! The guy is a treasure when it comes to helping beginners.
Lots of good dealers out there. Few great ones mentioned. Also look at forum dealers like Ray Singer and Nick Ricupero. Not sure if Ed Marshall is still dealing? Grey Doffin has excellent deals, as do quite a few members here.
Take some time. Make sure you read the entire FAQ above right.
Your budget will get you something nice. Now take some time to discover what your own version of nice is.

[Jeffnyc]

Rayhan - I am curious about the process you described with your sword. I take it you bought a sword with Hozon papers with the expectation that it would pass the higher Juyo level? And once it passed it was (on the open market) worth considerably more?

 

Jeff

[Jeffnyc]

Also, is it a bad idea to buy a sword without seeing it in person? I guess I could convince the wife that we need to vacation in Japan....

[Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini]

Seems you have one shot only.

Be sure that what you aim at is what makes you happy and worth the effort. Otherwise You might end up with a rhino and soon after realize you preferred a lion...

[vajo]

He can't be sure because he did not know what makes him happy. Small steps are better than a big jump in unknown water. This is not an easy situation.

[Ken-Hawaii]

Jeff, if there's one thing I wish I had read prior to buying my first blade, it's this: http://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/forum/26-collecting-nihont%C3%B4-%E2%80%93-what-how-and-who/.

 

Guido Schiller is one of our elite members, who really understands both swords & the mindset of people who will buy them.

 

Going to Japan is a wonderful experience, but you would undobtedly pay more there, than you would for the same blade purchased in the U.S.

[Vermithrax16]

Can't add much to what has been posted. As usual, excellent advice.

 

I would say $15k-$20k is a tough spot because you can get really solid swords here, but the next level up is quite the move up in price and one has to decide if that is something they want to do or not. In a similar spot myself. 

[Katsujinken]

Can't add much to what has been posted. As usual, excellent advice.

 

I would say $15k-$20k is a tough spot because you can get really solid swords here, but the next level up is quite the move up in price and one has to decide if that is something they want to do or not. In a similar spot myself.

My advice: go above 20 or stay below 10. Between 10 and 20 is a fraught middle ground.

[Jeffnyc]

My advice: go above 20 or stay below 10. Between 10 and 20 is a fraught middle ground.

Is there a correlation between price and origami? In other words, is it fair to say that a hozon sword will cost between X and Y, and a juyo token sword will cost between Y and Z?

[Katsujinken]

Is there a correlation between price and origami? In other words, is it fair to say that a hozon sword will cost between X and Y, and a juyo token sword will cost between Y and Z?

Much of the time there certainly is, but it can become an oversimplification if you’re not careful. You don’t want papers to lead you around by the nose. The adage is “buy the blade, not the papers.” But that can also be a pathway to delusion. This is where a knowledgeable, trustworthy dealer comes in.

 

Darcy Brockbank has written extensively on this. I highly recommended reading his entire blog.