Timeline Type 3 Gunto

[PNSSHOGUN]

While I am a stickler for correct terminology I really must agree with Brian, the syntax for this designation simply does not compute well with western collectors (that by far are the majority). Type 94, Type 98, Shin Gunto, Kai Gunto are easily searched, remembered and typed terms that "stick" for most new collectors, thus "Type 3" follows in logical sequence. 

 

My vote is "Type Rinji", you follow the normal designation profile, you mostly maintain the actual formal IJA designation and you have an easy format to remember that still has a mental pathway to the previous nomenclature of "Type 44 & Type 3".  

[Bruce Pennington]

George - Interesting observation about the lengths! I hadn't noted it before, but now that you've pointed it out, it feels right from the ones I've seen. Especially the basic ones in the tan saya. That was interesting to hear about them not being in the Ausie battle theatres, too.

 

Dave - YES, that's the graph, thanks! Now it's part of the thread.

 

Name - I agree with you Brian, as long as those books are out there, and old threads exist, guys will always show up using various terms for it. It will always be one of the toMAYto - tomMAHto debates. Given time, the weight of community lingo will settle it.

[BANGBANGSAN]

Some people might never change the way they used to, just like MOST people in the western world(Collectors and dealers ) use 村田刀  Murata-To for 造兵刀  Zohei-To, even though the 造兵刀 is the official name for those swords. As far as I know what they are talking about , it's fine with me,don't want/need to correct them for the official name.

I agree with the name 臨時制式 "Rinji Seishiki"not the short term 臨時 "Rinji" though.But I will still use Type 3 & Late war Type 3 when I talk to other collectors who use to that name.

 

We have known that the sword should not be called a 'Type 3' or '44' for 5 years now. Nick wrote his original article in 2015, which was linked here around that time. I remember a good number of people arguing that it was the 'Type 3' because the books said so. This was despite Nick providing all the documents from the archives to support the different dates and debunking the Type 3 designation. There were some iterations, but I think the Rinji Seishiki designation is finally the correct, proper term. I'm glad everyone is finally starting to use the correct term too, but the realisation that Type 3 was incorrect really shouldn't be news to anyone. The only new information is the identification of the Manchurian version of the koshirae. Anyway, this thing feels a lot like the old 'pilot' swords debate we had a year or two ago (time really flies), except the insistence on retaining that name was dropped a lot earlier. If anyone hasn't read all of the articles on swords, I recommend starting now. Here's a link http://www.warrelics.eu/forum/Japanese-militaria/master-index-reference-articles-written-nick-komiya-691796/

Sorry, I'm starting to sound like a grumpy old man on a rant, but I find it quite frustrating that it's taken this long for most people to even consider that the common term is wrong and needs changing. The 'book experts' always know better though! I've said my piece, back to learning! Don't get me wrong, I am enjoying the treads, but perhaps we can consolidate them under a single thread, with the proper designation? Just the fact this thread is titled with 'Type 3' is a great disservice to new members who should start with correct terminology.

Bruce or Neil, you guys are leading the transition of Nicks information to NMB, maybe we can take anything useful here and make a new thread, as Neil did with the MRS?

[george trotter]

As George suggested, Bruce and Nick, here is your Order Of The Rising Sun. 

Yes, these guys have done some fine research and deserve our appreciation...so thanks Nick and Bruce. Speaking of the Order of the Rising Sun...my Japanese teacher Tsuyako (Sogawa) Coveney 1936-2019 at Univ. West. Aust. was awarded it in 2017 after 40 odd years teaching (see pic below...yours truly is big guy at LHS...it was taken 1979)...I went to her award ceremony and to her funeral a few months ago. Her father was an IJA officer who was lost when his ship was torpedoed on the way back to Japan from Rabaul.

 

As to whether the term Rinji Seshiki gains wide acceptance, I don;t know...I am not a dictator so won't want to force people to change their ways...I think maybe over time if we put Rinji Seishiki and (Type 3) next to it it will help spread the message.

 

Bruce...about the change in length, tip, tang etc...I noticed it by comparing my 2 Munetoshi blades (98 and Rinji Seishiki) and I have seen it also with his brother Akihisa in each type of fittings. OF COURSE, with swords there are always exceptions so maybe it would be good for somebody (Bruce?) to do some research and see what "trends" show up (members must have lots of examples that can be cross-referenced against each other to see if it is true...or just my imagination!).

 

Anyway, here's the pic..she was a great woman/teacher...she used to tell me traditional folk stories...great...I'll miss her.

regards,

[Bruce Pennington]

Updates on the topic from Nick at: http://www.warrelics.eu/forum/Japanese-militaria/legally-rebutting-existence-type-3-army-officers-sword-708745/

 

New info:

- Tojo tried to get the model launched in 1941 with a press release and ordered 3,000 per year made.

- Appearantly didn't happen, speculating lack of demand due to appearance

- 1943, due to shortages of copper/brass, army pushed the Contingency model and production expanded.

[Shamsy]

That explains why the assumption was made that the Rinji Seshiki production was not started until 44. Good to hear Nick is still working away on information for sword collectors

[Bruce Pennington]

Adding one for George Trotter, who is still having trouble with the new site software - an April 1942, by Masakazu.  Dec '41 is still our earliest, but this one is up there with the earliest.

[george trotter]

I'm back! Thanks to Bruce and Brian...finally got me trained in the new way of doing things...I wish!

 

Anyway, about this Tsukamoto Masakazu blade made 4/17 (April 1942) in Rinji mounts. Pretty early for Rinji as Bruce says, but starting to appear in late 1941?  Masakazu  1901-1969 of Fukushima  studied under his younger brother Tsukamoto Ikkansai Okimasa in Tokyo and returned to Fukushima in late 1941 to set up his own forge. He became RJT smith from late 1942, but this one is one of his pre-RJT private order blades (no star) and is very long  at 69.5 cm.  As Bruce has been trying to unravel, this blade is marked 1129 on the tang and 'ni' 1129 on all metal parts, even the button catch and the back of the habaki...we are not certain yet, but as this is not a RJT blade this cannot be an RJT number...mounting shop number?

Here are a couple more pics.

Regards,

[george trotter]

On the subject of this private order  Tsukamoto  Masakazu blade above. I have a couple of questions members might be able to help with...Just to add to the Rinji Seishiki knowledge base.

Have a look at pics.

1.  the blade is 69.5 cm.(27 3/8 in)...have other menbers seen this length blade in Rinji mounts ?

2.  notice that the menuki are gilt/brass pattern instead of the usual 'Rinji pattern' black iron menuki...have members seen these as well?...maybe just a private order "customer choice" thing?

 

Be interested to know just how "varied" the Rinji sytem was.

Regards,

 

(Edit) well there you go...I should have looked at post #55 on this thread and I would have seen the gilt/brass menuki on a Rinji...duuhh!

Well, still interested in how common they are and answers on long blades.

[Bruce Pennington]

Yours is an inch longer than mine, George (don't go there! Ha!)

 

Your question did prompt me to re-look at my star-stamped Kunitoshi.  There are no stamped numbers, just painted ones (that oddly don't match the seppa numbers - 3377 painted, 945 seppa) so, my idea that the stamped numbers had something to do with the RJT is probably wrong.  They are likely stamped fitting shop numbers.

[Dave R]

 I think on how common Rinji were, Mr Komiya covered it. They were not a popular sword at the time, but merely what could be afforded/obtained by some officers. The IJA expected to win the war, and their swords to become family heirlooms, and at least be carried post war, so anyone who had the choice would have gone for the type 98

 

 Worst case scenario would have been a negotiated peace,with the IJA still existent as the official armed forces of Japan, in the same way as the German army was post WW1 still, reduced though it was, the official army of the state of Germany.

[george trotter]

Thanks Dave. Yes we know they are a lot 'scarcer' than the Type 98, and for the reasons you give. Just wondering about how scarce are the gilt/brass menuki among these rinji. I know that the earliest Rinji mounted sword known (Yamagami Akihisa gendai dated 12/1941 numbered 566 in brown lacquered Rinji) has black iron menuki - so that seems to mean the black ones were there from day one, so these gilt ones must be "private customer's mounting  choice"?. I am also supposing they'd only appear on the private order mounts for private order gendai and RJT blades...wouldn't expect to see them on the 'common' Seki made mounts for Rinji showato blades? 

 

and Bruce, yes, 1 inch longer heh-heh...do I hold the record? Wonder if there are longer blades in Rinji out there?

Regards,

[Bruce Pennington]

3 hours ago, george trotter said:

black iron menuki

I just re-checked Nick Komiya's run-down of the Rinji seishiki development.  Ordinance 5668, which started it, said "For the time being, no brass is to be used for the exterior fittings...".  So, initial production likely only used blackened steel, but after the model caught on, guys started ordering custom, spiffed-up versions.  Custom jobs, since they cost extra money, are always more rare than standard production models, whether a car, or clothes, or a sword.

 

If anybody has some with brass menuki it would be Neil or Trystan!

[IJASWORDS]

Please don't forget that there were a few undocumented models, similar to the RS that showed up from 1944 onward. In most respects quite unique, for example.... 

1. Although the Kabutogane looks the same as the RS, the Sarute hole is about half the diameter of the RS model.

2. The handle wrap is the same style as an RS, but ranges from yellow /orange to orange /brown in colour. Some times the menuki is fully covered.

3. The menuki are brass.

4. The Same under the wrap is a painted tape wrapped around the handle. 

5. The Fuchi, and Saya throat fittings are pressed brass with no markings. 

6. Blades have one Mekugi-Ana.

7. Quite a few have Katsumasa blades. 

I have 3, and have seen others, whilst they are not pretty, and a bit rough, I have an interest in rare and unusual Gunto. 

[Bruce Pennington]

2 hours ago, IJASWORDS said:

3. The menuki are brass.

Neil,

The model has all the appearance one would expect of a "late-war", "just so it stabs...", design - yet the brass menugi rather than steel.  Wonder why, considering the original intent was to avoid brass?  Seems almost out of place!

 

Oh, and you BETTER be working on a book!

[george trotter]

Well, looks like we can expect to find just about every variation possible in the RS group (probably lots more variations we haven't seen yet). Maybe best to just take them as they come and not try to "invent" an explanation for these variations. War-time, lots of pressure, supply problems etc, etc. Just make something that works...hyaku, hyaku...

 

Thanks guys,

 

[Dave R]

I would suggest that a lot would depend on what was knocking around in the workshop when assembled. It's a utility model and they would use up  what was there in the drawers rather than pass on making a sale. Workshops always have oddments left over from previous production runs and projects.

[Bruce Pennington]

Very nice example - all black fittings! - smith: Ryu-u

FOUND HERE AT WEHRMACHT-AWARDS

[Bruce Pennington]

I think this was discussed on another thread that I can't find with my poor searching skills, but there are two late-war tsuka on this page with sarute ana not drilled through.  I just found another.  This star-stamped Munetoshi is in upgraded lacquered wooden saya, but you can see the sayajiri is low quality and the sarute ana isn't drilled through.

[vajo]

On 8/29/2020 at 8:51 PM, Dave R said:

 I think on how common Rinji were, Mr Komiya covered it. They were not a popular sword at the time, but merely what could be afforded/obtained by some officers. The IJA expected to win the war, and their swords to become family heirlooms, and at least be carried post war, so anyone who had the choice would have gone for the type 98

 

 Worst case scenario would have been a negotiated peace,with the IJA still existent as the official armed forces of Japan, in the same way as the German army was post WW1 still, reduced though it was, the official army of the state of Germany.

 

Dave i read somewhere i don't know if its true or not, the Type 3/ Rinji Model was made according to the historical model of the sword of  General Yamamoto Kansuke (山本 勘助 菅介) who died in the 4. battle of Kawanakajima against Uesugi Kenshin. He was the master strategist of Takeda Shingen. There is a famous print of the Earth of Kawanakajima (Kawanaka no tsuchi).

 

For me the Rinji Koshirae is the most beautifull wartime Koshirae which shows the spirit of a warrior. It is restrained in design without appearing arrogant. Ok, thats a view of a western collector noob, but i think in this way and i belief they made the design of the rinji in that spirit.

 

We should not forget that these ancient warriors have gone to war with simple designed koshirae and not with high valued artwork. The Type98 is eyecandy with its colors and gold and nice looking on a parade. But in battle the Rinji is more practical.

 

[Bruce Pennington]

Nick Komiya just posted a nice summary with some new insights at UNVEILING RINJISEISHIKI 1940.

[rancho]

On 8/29/2020 at 9:28 AM, george trotter said:

On the subject of this private order  Tsukamoto  Masakazu blade above. I have a couple of questions members might be able to help with...Just to add to the Rinji Seishiki knowledge base.

Have a look at pics.

1.  the blade is 69.5 cm.(27 3/8 in)...have other menbers seen this length blade in Rinji mounts ?

2.  notice that the menuki are gilt/brass pattern instead of the usual 'Rinji pattern' black iron menuki...have members seen these as well?...maybe just a private order "customer choice" thing?

 

Be interested to know just how "varied" the Rinji sytem was.

Regards,

 

(Edit) well there you go...I should have looked at post #55 on this thread and I would have seen the gilt/brass menuki on a Rinji...duuhh!

Well, still interested in how common they are and answers on long blades.

Hi George

I know the thread is little bit old but

To answer your #1 question....

My Rinji Nagamitsu nagasa is 27in 5/32.....i have a longer one than Bruce but your still the longer🤣

I have the common black menuki 

On the handle and blade is a very strait suguha hamon

Merry Christmas to you all 

Eric

 

[george trotter]

Thanks Eric,

Very interesting, so Rinji mounts can have very long blades (my Masakazu of the earlier period is Sho 17/4) - your Nagamitsu (date?) is 27 3/8 in  69.4 cm (mine is 27 3/8 in 69.5 cm) so just about the same (my extreme point is slightly chipped off so was probably 69.6 or 7).

Wonder if anything of 70 cm or longer will show up?

Regards,

 

[Bruce Pennington]

An update: David, @Akitombo, has this October 1940 Amahide in RS fittings:

 

 

[Bruce Pennington]

Update on that

 

The blade has 2 ana, but mounted in Type 94/98 fittings.  I've looked at a few RS blades to compare, and I'm not sure the spacing of the ana on this one are what we normally see.  The blade is also fullered, not a normal feature on RS blades.  So, unless someone has other thoughts on it, I'm not so sure we've found and earlier RS than Dec '41.

 

[Bruce Pennington]

I was reading a page on Doug Austin's, @Austo1, site Gunto Art Swords.  He was discussing a custom Type 3/RS with a blade that had no star stamp.  It had the double release buttons and 2 steel mekugi screws.  His observation was that the blade was likely gendaito as Type 3's with steel screws will contain gendaito blades.  I have seen that to be true for fittings with the double chuso buttons, but never noticed the point about the steel screws.  

 

I've done a brief survey and found the point to be true.  I have loads of RJT, star-stamped blades for the survey, but could use some more standard Type 3s with showato for the data.  So, if you have a standard Type 3 with a showato blade, please post for the survey.

 

So far, I have 30 gendaito in the chart and all have steel screws, except 5 with only bamboo pegs.

I have 13 standard with showato and all have bamboo pegs, except 3 with screws.

 

In both cases, there is no way to know if the exceptions were original or post-war replacements, as many of our gunto show up missing mekugi altogether.  But the overall picture is backing up the idea.

 

Steel or Bamboo Mekugi – Rinji Seishiki Model

 

GENDAITO				Source
Steel or Bamboo	1 or 2 Chuso	Saya Type Standard or Custom	Stamps date mei
Steel, 1/?	2	Custom	Star Dec 1941 Akihisa	Windy, NMB
Steel, 2	2	Custom	Star May 1943 Chikafusa	Vajo, NMB
Steel, 2	2	Custom	None Aug 1943 Kunitada	Gunto Art Swords
Steel, 1	2	Standard	Star Feb 1945 Kunitoshi	BWP
Bamboo 1/?	2	Custom	Star Jan 1943 Kaneyoshi	NW, NMB
Steel, 1/?	2	Custom	Matsu on old blade No Date Kaneyoshi 兼賀	Apollox, NMB
Steel & Bamboo	2	Standard	Star Mar 1944 Kazunori	Showa22, ebay
Bamboo 1/?	2	Custom	Star Mar 1943 Kiyokatsu	Daniel, NMB
Steel, 1/?	2	Custom	Star Oct 1944 Masaharu	?
Bamboo, 1/?	2	Custom	Star Jun 1944 Masakuni	Volker72, NMB
Steel, 1/?	2	Custom	Star Aug 1944 Masamichi	Poulin Auction
Steel, 2	2	Custom	Star Sep 1943 Masanaga	Bangbangsan
Steel & Bamboo	2	Custom	Star Mar 1944 Masanaga	Bangbangsan
Bamboo, 2	2	RS/T98 mix	Star 1943 Mitsuhiro	Panzerfaust44, Gunboards
?/Bamboo	2	Custom	Star May 1943 Nagatoshi	Warpathmilitaria
Steel, 1/?	2	Custom	Star Jul 1943 Munetoshi	Pippo, NMB
Steel, 1/?	?	Custom	Star Dec 1944 Nobutake	Bangbangsan
Steel, 1/?	2	Custom	Star Jun 1943 Nobutake	Ammad, NMB
Steel, 1/?	?	Custom	Star Jun 1943 Sadakatsu	Warpath collectables
Steel, 1/?	1	Custom	Star Feb 1944 Sadaroku	Showa22, ebay
Steel, 1/?	?	Custom	Star Oct 1944 Sadashige	Japanesesword.com
Steel, 1/?	?	?	Star Aug 1943 Shigefusa	Cox/ima-usa
Steel, 2	2	Custom	Star Spring 1943 Sukenobu	Hi-revr, NMB
Steel, 2	2	Custom	Star Feb 1944 Sukenobu	Cox/Worthpoint
Steel, 1	?	Standard	Star Sep 1944 Sukenobu	Cox/Worthpoint
Steel, 1	2	Custom	Star Jul 1944 Tomonari	IJASWORDS, NMB
Steel, 1	2	Custom	Star Mar 1943 Tsuguhiro	Adrian S, NMB
Steel, 2	2	Custom	Star Feb 1943 Tsugunobu	Bangbangsan
Steel, 2	2	Custom	Star 1943 Zuiho	Butch, NMB
Bamboo	1	Custom	Star Aug 1943 Zuiho	ebay
SHOWATO
Steel, 1/?	1	Standard	Unknown	Numblock, NMB
Steel, 1/?	1	Standard	Gifu/Seki Feb 1945 Kanemune	Lennon, NMB
Bamboo, 2	1	Standard	Gifu Nov 1944 Kanemune	Erwin, NMB
Bamboo, 1/?	1	Standard	Na Jan 1944 Kanenori	Dabedo, NMB
Steel, 1/?	1	Standard	Gifu 1945 Katsumasa	Den70, NMB
Bamboo, 1/?	1	Standard	Gifu May 1944 Masanori	Swordamateurnagoya
Bamboo, 2	1	Standard	Gifu/Seki/Na Mar 1944 Yoshichika	RussellM, NMB
Bamboo, 1/?	1	Standard	Mar 1945 Yoshichika	Sechan, NMB
Bamboo, 1/?	1	Standard	Mumei, No Date	DTM72, NMB
Bamboo	1	Standard	Unknown	Bruno, NMB
Bamboo	1	Standard	Unknown	Bruno, NMB
Bamboo, 2	1	Standard	Unknown	Montrealfan1986
Bamboo	1	Standard	? Apr 1945 Sukekuni	BWP

[John C]

17 hours ago, Bruce Pennington said:

So, if you have a standard Type 3 with a showato blade, please post for the survey.

I think I have one for your data set.

Jan 1945 Katsumasa with small seki stamp. It came with one bamboo mekugi near the kojiri, however the mekugi-ana near the tsuba end does not go all the way through and may have been a screw originally. Only one chuso release.

 

John C.

[Bruce Pennington]

Yes, just what I'm looking for, thanks John!