Kubikiri Korner

[Ed]

This subject has been debated here in the past. In this current debate as in all debates there will be opinions on both sides. Opinions which are unlikely to be easily swayed.  Unfortunately, without concrete, undeniable, documented proof, all that remains are one’s opinion infused with doubt and speculation.  One might surmise that an attempt to find a definitive answer may prove futile. 

 

It is my opinion that without definitive proof, one must rely on probabilities opposed to absolutes. The evidence we possess along with common sense makes a reasonable case or provides the highest probability against these blades being used as Head Cutters. Not definitive, but most probable. 

 

Years ago, my partner in Japan had a nice one (one of the ones posted by Robert), so I brought it home.  Having heard the term Kubikiri back home I questioned him about it, to which he replied it was nothing more than a western marketing scheme. 

 

During that trip, I asked numerous Japanese dealers as well as a Fukuoka branch NBTHK judge whose name evades me, about kubikiri.  Everyone I asked, gave me the same reply (some along with a chuckle), that there was no such thing.

 

Every one of them gave me the same information.  That these were either referred to as “Nata”, which was generally reserved for the more utilitarian tool type, or as Hanagatana or “flower sword”, for the nicer examples, but both terms were used interchangeably.

 

In regard to the ones nicely mounted in koshirae, I was told that these were reserved for the higher classes or Daimyo families, where lesser quality versions where for commoners, farmers and such.

 

Personally, and I may be wrong, but I just can't buy into the Kubikiri idea.

 

Looking through the book "History of Torture and Punishment" by Yuio Nawa. It has illustrations of numerous methods of torture and execution and beheadings. Every one of them depicts the removal of heads by sword or saw, but not one picture of anything resembling a Nata or Hanagatana.

 

I reiterate what I have said in the past, that common sense tells me with every Samurai carrying two swords, and the battlefield littered with swords, why would such a thing be needed?

 

Markus’s documentation provides documentation that wakizashi were used for this.

“you hold your wakizashi in reverse grip [...] and cut off the head."

 

So, what do we know?

• We know there have been no examples provided, where these blades are shown being used for severing heads in any prints, scrolls or text.
• Kubikiri is speculation. No one has seen one sold in Japan as Kubikiri, at least not as of this writing.
• Hanagatana are sold on Japanese websites, not Kubikiri.
• Markus’s documentation provides documentation that wakizashi were used for this.
• All prints, books or scrolls which depict beheadings use swords or saws, not kubikiri.

 

Again, it could be argued that this is not 100% definitive, and I agree. 

Yet, assessment of the currently existing information would seem to yield the highest probability in support of Nata opposed to Kubikiri.

 

For those who haven't seen them, here is the link to the photos of my Nata/Hanagatana: http://yakiba.com/nata.htm

 

___________________________

The only “Head cutter” I am aware of is the Katana named “Atama Wari” shown in Markus’s Tameshigiri book, page 164.

[vajo]

Thats the scientific way. As all we know is that ravens are black. This is the state of art not the proof. There is no proof in science. If you show one white raven all is mixed up. If a headcutter exist is like Nessi, Yeti, Time travelling, Ufo's, and all other things we could think, but never proofed seen.

 

 

Fair Point! BUT all it takes to falsify Christoph is juste ONE woodblock print shopwing the actual use of a nata for behading. Yet we are to see them (in this thread)

 

[Surfson]

Uncle.  I will remain silent on this, other than accumulating more examples for our repository, unless I find an old text that refers to them or an old print that shows one in action.  Thanks for a healthy debate.

[Markus]

Will keep my eyes open as well and update if I find one depicted/mentioned in a period painting/source.

[Jean]

Whatever you find Robert, it will not be Shinto or Shinshinto as the examples shown.

[Guido]

For those who haven't seen them, here is the link to the photos of my Nata/Hanagatana: http://yakiba.com/nata.htm

 

Ed, this type of nata on your website – with the little protrusion at the hasaki - is called ebi-nata 海老鉈, i.e. “shrimp hatchet”. This was done to protect the edge/tip if things are cut that are lying on a (more or less) flat surface.

 

Either that, or to clean out the brain after chopping off a head, I forgot which one …

[Vermithrax16]

Sort of glad I missed this debate!

 

My untrained opinion is this:

- I posted a weird blade (this type) a while ago and went to the rabbit hole of flower cutters vs other uses. Everything I read tells me they were tools.

- The fine fittings posted on couple above by OP look to be just cut down stuff, refitted. If the blue scale one has papers, post them so one can see was the blade given papers or just remnant koshirae.

- If these were head cutters and they were valued, I would guestimate there would be a market for them already, one not just now discovered. 

 

To be fair, some I have seen are really nice, worth buying. But most just seem like remnant blades and cut down fittings with a story. Just my 2 cents.

[Ed]

Guido,

Never heard the term Ebi-nata.  Great to learn something new.

 

Thank you,

Ed

 

Robert, Don't give up. I don't think anyone would be upset if one day some new indisputable proof was discovered.  Until then, if you like them, enjoy them. No harm in that. 

 

However, when sitting around the man cave drinking with buddies, I would stick to the head cutter story. 

[Surfson]

Thanks Ed, and your post was great.  I actually don't find them to be very appealing!  I obtained the one that started this whole mess.....errr....adventure, when buying an entire collection of swords.   I have since sold it.  Cheers, Bob

[Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini]

Will keep my eyes open as well and update if I find one depicted/mentioned in a period painting/source.

 

Hi Markus.

To sustain your thesis the example I provided is from the famous "Mongol Invasion Scroll" and is effectively a Tanto-Kodachi hold in reverse grip by a samurai to cut the head of a mongol general..Anybody can search a zoomed picture of that detail.

[YOJIMBO]

my kubikiri katakiriba

[Rich S]

Nice example. Looks like a good blade and nice koshirae.

Rich

[Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini]

Indeed...

[Surfson]

Nice addition to our "collection" Simon!   Don't let anybody convince you that it was made for chopping up charcoal or pruning bushes!  Cheers, Bob

[Surfson]

There's another kubikiri on ebay right now and I thought I would add it to our collection!  It's another argument that these things are NOT for cutting trees or charcoal.  

[Surfson]

Here is the link.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Japanese-Samurai-sword-TANTO-KUBIKIRI-with-Koshirae-and-shirasaya-era-EDO-RARE/253845864887

[Surfson]

Haha, just noticed that it is Simon's.  Oh well, free advertising!  Cheers, Bob

[Anthony de Vos]

Hi!

 

I have seen two similar koshirae for nata here the one with the white scales and one with green scales that I now own.

I was very supriced when, during my last trip to Japan, found an example of both at the same place. The Watanabe museum in Tottori.

What are the chances for that...

 

Anthony

[TheGermanBastard]

Here is mine for sale ...

 

http://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/28824-kubikiri-aka-infamous-head-cutter-tanto-for-sale/?p=292194

[Jason N]

I saw a swordsmith’s apprentice using what appeared to be one of these “head cutters” to chop charcoal for the forge. It was in the documentary “Master and His Last Apprentice”.

[Surfson]

Here is discussion of Luis' Kubikiri:

 

http://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/30274-kubikiri-aka-infamous-head-cutter-tanto-nata-in-koshirae/

[AntiquarianCat]

I’m probably speaking from a position of ignorance and I also can’t read Japanese which constrains my ability to search but the only remotely related hits for kubikiri that google scholar gives concern tameshigiri with swords. If a reverse edged kubikiri was used to take heads then wouldn’t at least some chronicles mention it? Like Chinese records of the Imjin war talk about the Japanese using swords on people, and hacking off noses as trophies but don’t mention a head cutter. From what I gather other war’s chronicles don’t either.

 

Granted I could be totally mistaken and wrong and the Japanese scholarly literature could very well mention use of a reverse edged head cutter. But I’m just saying I can’t find any with my limited understanding. If that’s the case wouldn’t the simplest explanation be that such a method wasn’t used to take heads, at least not in any non ad hoc way?

[Dave R]

 Mr George Cameron Stone has a lot to answer for.

[Surfson]

There are two camps.  

 

The first, and I think the largest group, think that they were used for cutting bonsai, gardening, maybe chipping charcoal.  

 

The second group thinks that they were used for taking heads on the battle field.  

 

The main problem with the second theory is that it is difficult or nearly impossible to find wood block prints showing them in use.  

 

The problem with the first theory is that many of them are wonderfully forged, fully polished and in very fine mounts.  Not something that would be done for a tool to cut charcoal or plants.

 

I think that somebody needs to go on a extensive search to find examples of their use in old wood block prints, either way.  I believe that I once saw one in a print being used to take the head of a fallen opponent, but didn't save it. 

[Dave R]

 Other than G.C.Stones "Glossary" is there any other source that does not refernce Mr Stone. Regarding quality, are there plain versions of these blades? 

 Quality is in the eye of the beholder, I have a (personal) feeling that in Edo Japan any blade (or any other accessory) that left the kitchen and was seen in public would be mounted to reflect the status of the wielder.

[Tonkotsu]

Here is my Kubikiri Tanto or Nata. My guess is that it is a bonsai pruner. Considering how valuable and prized many bonsai were and are a wealthy person would spare no expense on a special pruning tool.

[Surfson]

This example does look utilitarian Dick.  I wonder whether cutting bonsai might be better done with small serrations on the blades?  Thanks for the addition to the Kubikiri collection. 

[DoTanuki yokai]

I think its the tool of a Japanese bamboo artist like in this video at minute 12:00. If u are in Samurai class and u love working with bamboo why not make a nice koshirae to show ur status.

 

[Tonkotsu]

I think you may have hit the nail on the head.

[Surfson]

Interesting possibility.  That blade is straight though.