Kubikiri Korner

[vajo]

One question from a nihonto rookie. Why you need for beheading death or dying samurais an extra tool? You have Tachi, Katana, Wakizashi, Naginata and Tanto all over the battlefield? Why you must carry a expensive normal senseless tool into war?

Btw in modern times psycho islamic killers from the ISIS take a pocket knife.

[Surfson]

I have chosen to be agnostic as to whether the kubikiri is a legend or a real tool.  However, in defense of its possible use  as a tool, once a body is on the ground, chopping motions threaten to dull a katana or other long blade by striking the ground.  Picking up the head by its hair and then drawing the blade toward one would be a sensible way to decapitate a vanquished enemy in the field.  In that case, an inward curving blade would be desirable. 

[Stephen]

Agree with Bobby. Lots of heads to be collected after battle. Why dull your wakizashi?

[Jean]

First: have you ever seen a kubikiri sold as on a Japanese Nihonto dealer website?

Second: Nata or kubikiri are less than one shaku long. Try to severe a head with such a tool and cut through the spinal cord. It is more chopping than cutting. A gentle sweep of a katana will be quicker and more effective. There are a lot of easy ways to arrange a corpse to cut his head off with a katana or wakizashi.

 

AFAIK, I have not read anything about this special tool. If anyone can provide a link to a book talking about headcutter blades, I’ll be glad to read it.

 

Edit to add: read Markus Sesko’s Encyclopedia of Japanese swords about kubikiri....

[Surfson]

Your comments are fair Jean.  I am just trying to make a "repository" of examples of kubikiri to inform the debate.  Maybe one day somebody will unearth an early text that discusses them.  I have seen photos of woodblock prints that seem to show them in use.  Here is the original thread that started it for me.  Cheers, Bob

 

http://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/23063-now-for-something-different-ninja-sword/

[Surfson]

Here is another one that I found, and a link.  Cheers, B

 

http://www.alamy.com/stock-photo-a-Japanese-kubikiri-tanto-charcteristically-used-for-beheading-enemies-31626044.html

 

 

 

[Surfson]

And this modern one.  

 

[vajo]

If you look on woodprints you find allways wakizashi or tanto.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Surfson]

Always???  Have you looked at them all Chris?  

[Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini]

If you look on woodprints you find allways wakizashi or tanto.

 

kubikiri.jpg takinghead.jpg

 

indeed, on ancient scrolls as well, generally more reliable of later woodprints (far left).

[vajo]

Taking heads was a important action for a Samurai to become famous. If such a tool had exist why it is not shown on pictures?

[Jean]

Chris,

 

On the scroll posted by Carlo, it is probably a tanto which is used, the companion to the tachi. The kubikuri is supposed to be used after the battle...

[Surfson]

I have seen at least one in a woodblock print.  I just don't have it or know where to find it.  

[seattle1]

Hello:

 Please take a look at my post of 10:23 this morning. The kubikiri shape referred to is a total 180 degree contradiction of the most essential feature of the Japanese sword, namely its efficiency when drawn through a medium. The so called "kubikiri" we see here can't be anything other than crude choppers if they were ever used for the imagined purpose. To chop well they would also have to be fairly heavy. Would any sane samurai want to carry that extra weight around in addition to his usual shoto weapon?

 Arnold F.

[Jean]

Remember one thing from Markus book: « A special dagger used in EARLY times (means Heian or Kamakura)...However extant specimen are very rare and so are record mention the use of reversed tanto cutting edge to cut off heads.Therefore it is also assumed that reversed tanto were actually used as gardening tools... ».

 

So forget anything you see for sale labeled « head cutter », it is only Nata

[Rich S]

IMHO, kubikiri were more likely used for bonsai and other agricultural or ceremonial chores. I've seen very well made ones (tempered,koshirae) for upper class folks and very poorly made ones also.  Even though I've a page one them that relates possible use as head cutters, I doubt this was the original intent.

 

Rich

[John A Stuart]

I have cut the heads from many types of animals, as well as disarticulating them at various joints. I would never chop them, instead, following the joint (cervical process) and severing the attaching ligaments. A sharp thin knife is best. The spine cut longitudinally and certain other boney areas like the blade need a saw, I guess a chopper, like an axe, would suffice in the field (crude). The nata/ kibikiri with reverse blade and no sentan would be woefully crude and I think quite useless for removing heads with efficacy. John

[Surfson]

We have gotten no farther than the stalemate of last time, but at least we have added a couple more examples to the repository.  As soon as the naysayers explain why garden tools are made in fine samurai style mounts, we can all throw out the fact that many people and texts refer to them as head cutters.  

[Rich S]

Has anyone asked the NBTHK Sword Museum for info?

Rich

[Jean]

Robert,

 

The picture you posted is not conclusive as it does not quote its sources, anybody can call a reverse cutting edge tanto a kubikiri.

 

Who are these « many people » and which are the « texts « you are referring to? I am still looking for Japanese reference texts.

 

There is not a single proof that they ever existed even on Japanes block prints. My reference is Markus Sesko and his text is very clear. Even Japanese experts are now talking about nata.

 

Edit to add: the blade posted by Robert has a 25cm nagasa. Try to slice with such a tanto taking into account its sori. It is all but a kubikiri.

 

It is interesting to note that this kind of blade with its supposed function does not exist in any civilization but for Indian kukri, but there with its weight, it is a real choper. Nothing to compare with a tanto weight

[vajo]

Maybe some samurai use a nata for beheading who knows? But a blade made only for behading? How many of this blades must have exist over the time? I wonder the nata could be made in further times for earning heads and later become a garden tool?

[Stephen]

Whos job to clean up all the heads? not someone with rank me thinks, a pions job for sure. Romancing the swordsmanship would be great movie, but doubt thats how it went down, John brings up some great points. 

 

Where's Ian B im sure he has some points of history on this. 

[vajo]

Stephen i remember to read that the beheading was not to count. It was a honorable way to show a daymio to be a true warrior and a honor for the samurai who lost his life. His family got the head back, sometimes for paying money. And i was thinking that not every Soldier who died on the battlfield was beheaded. Only the important Samurai.

[Surfson]

Sorry guys, but we can't get ourselves out of this with simple logic.  Markus' entry in his book clearly takes both sides of the debate.  Jean, you misquote me.  What I wrote is:  "Maybe one day somebody will unearth an early text that discusses them."

 

Or maybe not.  Until then, I have not made my mind up as to what is the correct history of these highly mounted blades, though I do believe that the suggestion that they were used for cutting charcoal or trees is a weak hypothesis.

[seattle1]

Hello:

 If there is a hypothesis on the "kubikiri" side it would have to incorporate the implication at least that the functional form of such blades are better fitted than the equi-angular shape of all conventional Nihonto for the task at hand, namely removing a head, and therefore by conclusion to be preferred for that task. Such would be a negation of what is known about what makes Japanese weapons cut well!

 Arnold F.

[Surfson]

Katana and wakizashi, by being curved, concentrate the weight of the blow on a small portion of the edge, amplifying their cutting power.  A blade such as this, if used with a chopping or sawing motion, would tend not to fall or slide off its target (the neck) due to its concave shape.  Just my sense of the physics.  Maybe Jeremiah or one of our quants can do an analysis of this.  

[Jean]

It is too light to chop and above all, you’d lack the momentum with such a light blade. Sawing now has a rub, it is the spinal chord, not easy to find the joint with such a blade.

[vajo]

With a sharp thing you can cut everything. In the stoneage they use stones ????

For me it is not important what kind of blade. They all where sharp. It is the question why they should carry a tool for cutting heads into the battlefield. If there was a need for cutting thousends of heads in the field why the dont use a cutting mechanic on a heads down station with professionals who do the job. Thats all nonesense. If there was a need for such a tool we must search in the spirit of the time. Is there any regularity in behading an enemy?

[Markus]

Jean made me aware of this thread and asked me to join, so I want to add my 2c to the issue:

 

First, I want to address period written sources. Problem here is that earlier ones usually only refer to kubitori (首取り), i.e. the act of taking a head, and not to a specific device. To my knowledge we have to wait to the early period to see devices being address. For example the Musha Monogatari (武者物語) from the mid 1600s and the Zōhyō Monogatari (雑兵物語) from the late 1600s. In the former we find a detailed description of how a certain Mukai Noto no Kami was taking his heads:

 

"First you pin down your enemy to the ground and stop with your right foot on his right arm. Then you fold back the shikoro and cut his windpipe. After that, you hold your wakizashi in reverse grip [...] and cut off the head."

 

The latter source says that it may be difficult to cut off a head with an ō-wakizashi and that rather shorter blades should be used. 

 

Now what is interesting to me is the explicit mention of holding the hilt of the wakizashi in reverse grip. Take a look at the pics below. They all show heads being cut off with the handle being held in reverse grip.

 

 

As the nata-style blade has the cutting edge inside of the curve, obviously none such blade was used in any of the pics shown above. They all cut with the curve outwards (see detail below, don't know why they had to anonymize the guys with bars ).

 

 

 

Another problem I am thinking of is that I can't remember seeing any painting of a warrior in armor wearing some extremely curved dagger in his sash like the mounted one provided by Bob in post #36. But that might mean nothing as I probably just don't have come across one yet. Just anecdotal evidence.  

 

Now thinking of nata being of exactly that shape, I can't help thinking of samurai sword-style mounted short blades with the cutting edge on the inward curve being just that, i.e. fancy gardening knives maybe worn by a merchant or tea guy who wanted to have something special or by a bushi who was into gardening...

 

So that are basically my thoughts on this issue: No such old blades extant, no explicit mention in period texts, period battlefield depictions ambiguous at the best, fancy mounted ones all date to the (later) Edo period.

 

 

 

[TheGermanBastard]

@ Bob:

 

[...] I have seen photos of woodblock prints that seem to show them in use [...]

 

Just seem or actually do?

 

Always???  Have you looked at them all Chris?  

 

Fair Point! BUT all it takes to falsify Christoph is juste ONE woodblock print shopwing the actual use of a nata for behading. Yet we are to see them (in this thread)

 

Guys, use your common sales logic:

 

Best things sold are dreams and stories ... whioch one do you like better? The infamous head cutter or the bonsai tool? So if you are a motivated seller it is simple that you take the better story of the sales box ...

 

Just aks yourself why a thing like a head cutter should be invented if you have enough people with swords running all around the place ... yes of course some people do have a Pizza slicer while they also jave a kitchen knife. You can have both ... but as others have pointed out, the infamous head cutter would probably be rather ineffective. That is the point where I think it is juts a myth.

 

PS: The tanto posted by Bob was sold on Hermann Historica floor auction some years ago ... at around Euro 6000.00 hammer price the buyer got the head cutter stoy free of charge and it sure helped on the final price I bet.