Mei Translation. Minamoto Kiyomaro?

[Guest Lee]

Carlo Gisuseppe Tacchini

 

Hello,

 

Did I say anything wrong ? I Ask the question to learn why the others swords are like that . I know who Darcy is !

I got to learn some how. Tring to understand. Please do not correct me for tring to learn . Respectfully!

And what is Yasuri ? You got me on that one.

Thank you !

[Guest reinhard]

As I said before: It is confusing to compare just any mei you can find of a particular smith. Looking at the exhibition in the Sanoo museum, n.65 was made in Kaei 6th year and n.66 in Kaei 7th year (1854, the year of KIYOMARO's death) and what's more important: it has a "kirite" added to the mei dating from Ansei 3rd year (1856). Moriyama-san or Morita-san might find the time to translate and explain it fully.

The sword in question is dated to Kaei ninen hachi gatsu and can only be compared with the examples of that time.

 

Darcy pointed out: "...this mei has been laid out with an intention..."

This is also what I think and why this is a good exercise. Comparing the three mei from the same year and month, you will notice, that the "obvious" deviation between the two genuine examples (top part of the "Maro" kanji) still includes a personal handwriting, while the mei in question was obviously done by somebody, who knew the left mei and tried to copy it as closely as he could without fully succeeding.

 

reinhard

[Guest Lee]

Reinhard,

 

I see now ! That is what I needed to know.

Darcy, said to submit it for papers anyway. If he says to do so, guess that is what I need to do.

 

Thank you ,

 

Lee

[Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini]

Darcy said to submit it for papers anyway. If he says to do so, guess that is what I need to do.

 

It took some patience, but finally you got it...

 

Respectfully, keep us updated.

[Darcy]

Just to be clear I'm saying submit because in the case of a big name I think that it has to be exhausted beyond a shadow of a doubt as a rule. That is, in a time when the community is wrong, the potential impact of that incorrect "gimei" reading is really big. Removal of a mei or a sword being mistreated, etc.

 

So it has to be done I think just to rule out any possibility of error.

 

I don't have any doubt in my own opinion, I think the sword is gimei, but if I had the blade I would still submit it just in case. My other blade I had finally been convinced it was gimei and in the end it wasn't.

 

This particular community is also much better as nihonto students than it was 5 years ago.

[Darcy]

Kind of replying in reverse order but...

 

On all of the good examples the mei is showing what is a very good sense of geometric proportion. The characters are just laid out with respect to each other and the shinogi and the boundaries of the nakago in a way that is very clean and in harmony with each other.

 

He may change the actual position with respect to the shinogi depending on the blade, I have not studied this smith much, but what does not change is that he has a very keen sense of space and layout. It's the same kind of thing as the eye of a master photographer who is framing a picture of a model, or of a master furniture maker deciding how high, how wide and how long a particular table is going to be. Some smiths follow layout in regards to shinogi as a straight rule, it's a matter of studying the smith to find his habits.

 

Whenever a faker is faking something he is trying to emulate something that the actual artist feels innately, or else creates by means of some formula of body position, hand position, his favorite tools, the way sensei told him to make his tagane, his bench height, whatever it is... the faker instead has the final product to look at and doesn't know each of the variables in the formula. He is working backwards, reverse engineering and as well is trying to do this for profit and is not going to spend weeks trying to get the mei just right. Or else, he might as well just make and sell his own swords.

 

What his goal is, is to make it passably good because he knows already he won't match it, or to match it would take insane amounts of time... he wants it good enough so that someone on seeing it, their heart will skip a beat and their own desire to discover something will take over. He wants it good enough for the weakness in the sword lover or the greed in the businessman to speak louder than good sense. And this is a pretty good plan historically in all fields and markets :-).

 

So what you always get are these fakes which are "good enough", and invariably there is something wrong, big or small that you can pick up with dispassionate and skeptical study.

 

In your posts you keep concluding with "who knows?" which shows a hope for the sword to be legitimate... instead with a big name smith, we already know it is fake and then the sword has to prove itself to be legitimate. If the sword swings on three pitches and fails to hit the ball, then we know, and trying to argue the case of the sword as its advocate leads the student down the wrong path. You are supposed to be arguing with the sword, making points and letting the sword argue back. In this case the sword has no answer for the problems, and that's why we conclude it's gimei.

 

The thing to do I think is to understand that Kiyomaro is faked extensively, that this appears to be a mei that may have been faked from an oshigata of the sword that Reinhard found (how he continues to dig up just the right thing is beyond me :-), and that this sword has failed on multiple key and important issues of kantei. So we should know.

 

Then what we have to do after making a conclusion to the best of our abilities, is to continue to remain humble and make sure that all possible bases are covered in case we're wrong. So the blade shouldn't be submitted in a "who knows" sense, but it should be submitted in a "I believe I understand the situation, but in case that my knowledge is not as good as I think it is, then I must make sure that I've considered the case where I am wrong."

[Brian]

With reference to Lee's concerns abou the cost of polishing, then shinsa, then removing the mei and then resubmitting....would waiting for a shinsa in the USA or elsewhere and not having work done before that be an option? If I had a sword like this that is likely gimei but is well done and might have a nice blade, I would consider at least having it polished and the kissaki repaired. That way you have a nice sword that is likely a well done gimei, and may have been done by a master forger that has collectibility in itself. I wouldn't leave it as is anyhow.

Just my own opinion though.

 

Brian

[Brian]

Carlo Gisuseppe Tacchini

Hello,

Did I say anything wrong ? I Ask the question to learn why the others swords are like that . I know who Darcy is !

I got to learn some how. Tring to understand. Please do not correct me for tring to learn . Respectfully!

And what is Yasuri ? You got me on that one.

 

Lee, Carlo was not correcting you. I think he was being very helpful, and pointing out how valid Darcy's points were. You seemed to be querying some of the observations, and I think he was being most polite about it. None of us knows who knows who else, and indicating someone's experience is helpful to anyone reading who isn't a regular here. The catalog pics he posted are very helpful, especially with regard to the yasuri..which are the diagonal filemarks.

The input from everyone on this thread has been amazing, and about as much as you could ever hope for online imho. Thanks to everyone who posted

 

Brian

[Guest Lee]

Brian ,

 

Sorry! and I do apologize . This is the second time I have been corrected . I will watch this site and keep my thoughts to myself. Because Fear of I might say the wrong thing . Carlo's post can be taken two ways and I guess I found the wrong one.

I might add , that to post a sword is hard sometimes. It receives scrutiny from all sides . It is normal for one to try to stand behind his sword. It is almost like I feel the need to protect the smith who might have made it. Some times people take things wrong. Not only learn the sword but, learn to take scrutiny. It's hard ! My apology to Carlo,

 

Thank you Great site.

I thank "ALL" the people who have done a great job with the Kiyomaro {GEMEI} My wife and I have decided to put it in the closet . We do not feel that the restoration on the sword will ever take place anytime soon. It is just too much to spend on a Gemei.

 

Thanks!

 

Lee

[Guest nickn]

lee

its a gimei by a good smith well worth getting restored

why not get the kissaki done in the us first ? in the uk it would not cost that much

nick

[sencho]

As this has been such a great and educational thread, it has had me researching Kiyomaru more.

 

I have found oshigata and details of two more of his blades in one of my books... I thought I'd share, so here is the first dated Ka-ei Go Nen Ni Gatsu Hi 1852

 

Can anyone help me with the date on the second one?

 

Cheers!

[sencho]

...and here is the second dated Ko-ka (??) Nen Hatchi Gatsu Hi... I am having trouble with the year... Ko-ka period was only 4 years... is "Ji" (2nd) 次　part of this??

 

Cheers!

[Guest reinhard]

"...the faker...has the final product to look at..... He is working backwards, reverse engineering...."

 

This is THE most important key for telling fakes from originals; not only in the field of NihonTo but in art in general.

 

reinhard

[sencho]

I have just been reading Rich T's site....

 

Could the second oshigata date be Hinoto Hitsuji??? That would be the 44th year beginning on 1804.... 1847...

[Guest reinhard]

It is hinoto-hitsuji; the equivalent of Koka 4th year (1847)

 

reinhard

[nagamaki - Franco]

If it has not yet been mentioned, there is a Ju-to Kiyomaro on Ginza Chosuya's website which may be of some interest. Login is required in order to see it.

[Guest Lee]

Thank you!

 

Lee

[Ken-Hawaii]

Aloha, all:

 

I realize this thread has been quiet for over two years, but I suddenly have a real need to know if anyone has an idea how many swords Minamoto Kiyomaro created in the eight years he was active. I am ready to acquire one of his katana...with NBTHK origami. Not inexpensive by any means, but within my budget. It would certainly be the centerpiece of my Nihonto collection!

[David Flynn]

Buy for the sword, not the name. A good sword by anyone will sell. A not so good one, wellllll!

[Ken-Hawaii]

Certainly no argument there, David. Of course I do prefer Nihonto with NBTHK/NTHK papers because I'm fairly certain that the shinsa know a lot more than I do :D .

 

But I am curious about the number of Minamoto Kiyomaro blades that are out there, mostly because I was surprised & dismayed that so successful a smith committed seppuku because he felt he was no longer capable of making the quality of blades he had become known for. Illness or no, that certainly says something about his strength of character, & once I have his blade in hand, I'm certainly going to want to know more about the man, as well as the blade.

 

BTW, my wife & I don't buy Nihonto for resale, but rather for how they make us feel. Sounds a little "sappy," but, oh, well .

[David Flynn]

Ken, I also don't buy swords to resell. However, if something better comes along, welllll! Also, one never knows what's around the corner, s**t happens. Prudence is advisable.

A friend of mine has a Juyo sword for sale on this forum for a lot less than he paid for it.

I saw a Kiyomaro for sale in Japan when I was there, $45,000 US, Beautiful Sword, except, I thought the Jitestsu was a bit weak. That was enough to turn me off, at that price.

[Eric H]

Of course I do prefer Nihonto with NBTHK/NTHK papers because I'm fairly certain that the shinsa know a lot more than I do

In this particular case it is of importance how this Kiyomaro is papered: Tokubetsu Kicho, Koshu Tokubetsu Kicho, Hozon Token, Tokubetsu Hozon Token.

 

If there is a „green“ paper caution is advisable.

 

The added sword f.e. with green paper was sold on ebay for US$ 10,100.00...if submitted again to shinsa in Japan it would certainly not pass.

 

Eric

[Guido]

... I was surprised & dismayed that so successful a smith committed seppuku because he felt he was no longer capable of making the quality of blades he had become known for. Illness or no, that certainly says something about his strength of character, & once I have his blade in hand, I'm certainly going to want to know more about the man, as well as the blade.

I don't know where you got that information, but Kiyomaro basically drunk himself to death. The blades he produced while under the influence (quite a few years before his liver gave up) are often not worth the cost of the metal, and can be bought for a comparitatively low price.

 

The swords he forged during his better days are among the best any Nihontô collector can wish for - and are priced accordingly. The high-end sword shop Ginza Chôshûya published a statistic of sword prices a couple of years ago, and on average Kiyomaro fetched an even higher price than Masamune.

 

To sum it up: if it's a good Kiyomaro you can't afford it, if it's a bad one you just pay for the name and get a crappy sword.

[Ted Tenold]

Guido hit the nail on the head. There was a very long Kiyomaro for sale some years back. 32 inch nagasa if I remember correctly and it was listed for well over a million dollars USD. At that price I'd have to ask myself how much I really want a Kiyomaro vs. several other excellent swords I could have for the same price. For that one could re-unite the Sansaku of Osafune with some top rated works, and have change leftover. But I guess if one has the budget to even consider the price, perhaps comparison shopping is a moot point.

 

To answer your original question Ken, there's no way of knowing how many swords he produced. In his state of mind he probably couldn't have told you himself. It will forever be a mystery wrapped in enigma.

[cabowen]

...There was a very long Kiyomaro for sale some years back. 32 inch nagasa if I remember correctly and it was listed for well over a million dollars USD. At that price I'd have to ask myself how much I really want a Kiyomaro vs. several other excellent swords I could have for the same price. For that one could re-unite the Sansaku of Osafune with some top rated works, and have change leftover....

 

One can ask anything one wants....what one can get is another story....

[cabowen]

The blades he produced while under the influence (quite a few years before his liver gave up) are often not worth the cost of the metal, and can be bought for a comparitatively low price.

 

 

That is really interesting as I have never heard this nor come across any bona fide Kiyomaro blades that were anything less than top quality. Then again, outside of what can be seen in the Kiyomaro taikan, I have only seen/handled maybe a dozen or so Kiyomaro blades which isn't a very large sample...Still, everything I have read and been told speaks to what a demanding craftsman he was and how meticulous he was when it came to his work, sake aside....

[Ted Tenold]

One can ask anything one wants....what one can get is another story....

 

Quite true indeed. My comment was perhaps too glib. At the end of the day, the market sets the price. But that price is generally seen as relative to condition, quality and rarity, and for the most part these considerations get compared to other smiths of arguably equal caliber. Fundamentally speaking, this is accurate in it's general application. However the "mystique" of Kiyomaro, bolsters the prices of his works to bigger than life proportions. This mystique factor contributes to other smiths as well, such as Muramasa and Hankei. In my opinion (worth what I charge for it )the magnificence of even the best Kiyomaro works vs. the prices they tend to get listed for are inversely proportionate to that of other master pieces. So collecting good work does not entail focusing on the highest prices asked whether realized or not. As your other thread illustrates, there are many good works out there by smiths that didn't board the "fame" boat (whether they cared to or not), but are none-the-less, good works.

 

Work vs. signature, tempered with price is all I was trying to express.

[cabowen]

However the "mystique" of Kiyomaro, bolsters the prices of his works to bigger than life proportions.

 

True, he is kind of the Van Gogh of tosho.....but he did make beautiful swords quite unlike those of anyone else.....

[Eric H]

To sum it up: if it's a good Kiyomaro you can't afford it, if it's a bad one you just pay for the name and get a crappy sword

Wakizashi Kiyomaro, 44.2 cm

1800 man = US$ 220,000.00

 

Eric

[Guido]

Only Tokubetsu Hozon? Nah, I'll pass on it ...