Mei Translation. Minamoto Kiyomaro?

[sencho]

That's good... thanks Reinhard..

 

To me the comparison suggests strongly gimei... the mei in question does not have the same "handwriting" as the example... (in my novice opinion anyway)

 

The third kanji of the mei is particularly "loose" and untidy..

 

Cheers

[Guest Lee]

Hello,

I do not think Reinhard said it was a Gemei, I think he is saying that using just one Mei with a smith signature is not good because they mature over the years . Not all the smith signatures over the years are exactly the same. You must look at many examples . They both look the same to me ! Did I read it wrong ?

 

Reinhard , is this what you are saying ? Is the sword in question Shoshin or Gemei ?

 

Thanks!

[sencho]

Hi Lee,

 

I think Reinhard is letting us educate ourselves, by not saying anything and letting us come to our own conclusions. He did not say it was gimei or shoshin.. Reinhard (if I am correct) is showing us a comparison from the same date as your sword.

 

He is saying that a comparison with a mei from a sword, made 10 or 20 years before or after may be not much help, as a smith's signature often evolved over time.

 

The kanji is written as the same kanji on both swords...,

 

...but just as you and I can write the same words in English, in similar handwriting, the words were still written by different people. Even if I tried to copy your handwriting exactly, I would still miss a few elements of your particular style, and my copy of your handwriting would not be as fluid as your regular writing....

 

.. same as on a copied mei... some of these guys on the board, can tell immediately with some smiths, they have studied for so long.

 

... I am still learning and may be proved wrong, but I see inconsistencies between the two mei's. Especially the 3rd kanji is strikingly different... as if a copy was tried but did not quite make it....

 

Let's see what the others say about it....

 

Cheers

[Guest Lee]

Hello,

I turly do not think anyone knows here . Thats why we pay the NBTHK for papers.

 

Thank you for your replies !

[Guest Lee]

Hello,

I would like to put this picture on . Maybe it will help . No one has asked for a picture of the temper in the sun light. If I can take a good one I will post it. The blade speaks words too. Excuse the mess I had to show a better pictue.

 

Thanks!

[Guest Lee]

Will take a better one soon. Take the picture save on your PC and flip it up right.

[Brian]

Lee,

 

If there ever was a reason to send something to shinsa, this is it. None of us here can be 100% sure. You will never get a definite answer on a forum, just guidelines. However if the workmanship is as nice as you say, then it is worth polishing and submitting. It is close, but with every Kiyomaro I would assume gimei until proven otherwise.

Send it to Bob Benson...he will tell you if it is worth going further. Unless the entire shinsa panel registers here and gives you a firm answer, get it looked at in hand by someone.

 

Brian

[John A Stuart]

Awfully darn close for me. John

[Guest Simon Rowson]

Actually awfully darn close for me as well now that I can see the signature properly.

(For example, I can now see Jacques "pre-terminal" hooks)

 

However, Brian quite rightly said:

None of us here can be 100% sure.

(I totally agree, but I certainly think that is just as true for the shinsa panel itself - they are just human beings with all the fallability and bias which that fragile state entails. )

[Guest nickn]

there are too many erros in the mei the strokes are much to chippy and hesitant my guess would be kajihei who copied kiyomaro very closely ,explaining the hamon, over a long period and the bonji well they just are not the quality you would get on a true kiyomaro his sword have always been valuable its inconveivable the someone would have added them to a genuine blade

send photos to bob he will tell you if it is shoshin or not

[Guest Lee]

Hello, Nickn

 

I would think to give that close of evaluation one must hold the sword. The bonji could have been added many years after by whom or when . Maybe it was done like this ? I have seen many bad things done to swords over the years. One person may not see the same value as another person . Have you seen some of the Masamune blades ? Some of the Bonji and Horimono to me looks pretty weak. Sending photo's to Bob , no good because this forum only proves the problem I am having in a good judgement. Sword in hand , Sword in hand ! I do not what to think anymore . We will have to see.

 

Thanks!

[mike yeon]

Lee,

 

As many have already suggested, your best course of action is to send the blade to Bob B. The state it's in, you'd have to get it polished before you send it to shinsa. I'd actually be more worried about the broken kissaki than the authenticity of the mei. Bob can help with that too. Judging by the position of the yokote, it looks like 3/4 of the kissaki would be lost if repaired. Loss of boshi would make most swords worthless.

 

What I do know about kiyomaro, is that he didn't favor horimono. So it may not be original. From what I see, the futatsugi hi looks well done but the ken doesn't.

 

Also consider that kiyomaro was famous in his own time (thus fake blades were produced even while he was alive.) After the wearing of blades was banned, demand dwindled almost overnight. The only blades people wanted were ones by famous smiths so even honest tosho like Gassan Sadakazu were making gimei blades. You'll find that many gimei blades of various quality were produced during this time.

 

This is why we all might seem a bit critical/skeptical. Minomoto Kiyomaro is just about as big as it gets.

 

Best of luck with the blade!

 

mike

[Guest Lee]

Mike,

 

I totally agree with your post. I still think the kissaki could be fixed, only the polisher will know. The sword to me is a Gemei until I know for sure. Its like Reinhard said , Great learning tool. This sword would be a good example to teach new Shinsa . If it did pass with papers, everyone would talk about it for a long time.

 

Lee

[Nobody]

I noticed the difference in their Yasurime. I think Yasurime of most Kiyomaro were Sujikai (ç­‹é•). But the Yasurime of the sword in question is not so steeply slanted. It looks rather like Katte-sagari (å‹æ‰‹ä¸‹ãŒã‚Š) to me.

[Guest reinhard]

In Kaei 2nd year KIYOMARO was still in full power and this can be seen in his mei as well as in his swords dating from that year. Two famous katana from Kaei ninen 8th month are known. I made a "sandwich-pic" with the mei in question in between those two swords. I would like you to have a look at the yasurime-angle and the Kanji for "Minamoto" in particular. I don't say it's genuine or gimei yet, but I lean towards Sencho's opinion. It's about personal handwriting.

 

reinhard

 

Edit: was still working on the pic when Moriyama-san posted his remark about the yasurime. It's his copyright :-)

[Guest Lee]

Hello,

 

Please explain the file marks in the Sano Art book #65 and #66, Does anyone have this book. Please use the other picture I posted if you want to compare please. It is a better picture then Use #65 or #66 .

[Stephen]

if someone has Nihonto Koza go to the gimei section, remember big section n Kiyomaro, if i still had it id scan it, it may have been posted here before.

[Guest Lee]

Hello,

You know , we will just call it a Gemei ! Might just give it to my ten year old to play with it . I do not want to put any more money in it. Win some lose some !

 

Thanks for your help!

 

 

Have a good one.

[Jacques D.]

Hi,

 

Here Stephen :D

 

[Guest Lee]

Jacques ,

 

Explain number 59 in the Sano Art Book PLEASE!

[Jacques D.]

Hi,

 

Lee,

Can you post a picture of this blade? Sometimes, photographies don't show up all details (it's why good oshigata are often better to compare).

[Brian]

Hello,

You know , we will just call it a Gemei ! Might just give it to my ten year old to play with it . I do not want to put any more money in it. Win some lose some !

 

Lee, that is a bit of a silly attitude. If you think firstly that a gimei sword is worthless, then you should look at some of the top collections, or send it to me where I will give it a good home. Secondly, everyone here had their doubts about genuine or not. That is already better than most get..where they are usually sure that it is gimei. This alone is enough for you to send it to shinsa.

Do you expect to get a firm answer that it is genuine? Even in the best cases, with a name like this no-one is going to be 100% sure. You got a good reaction, and good advice to send it to Bob. You are not going to get anyone saying 100% it is right. If you get a few good comments from a few members that have knowledge, then that is a hint to now get it to someone who can examine it in hand. Bearing in mind that most of the work can only be seen in hand, and not in pics. A lot of guys went to a lot of trouble to do comparisons and show various points, and I think for an online forum you have great advice here.

 

Now with what has been said here, assume gimei like we all do with big names, and get it to Bob or someone else or shinsa and hope for the best. I can assure you we would all love to be proven wrong in this case, and it turns out to be shoshin.

 

Good luck with it, you still have a decent chance.

 

Brian

[Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini]

Seems I've missed the train...

Lee, as you've asked, I'm posting the pics from the Sano Art Museum catalogue

for anybody read now or in the future this topic.

Scan in high resolution under request to tsubame1@tin.it.

Brian is right. Just to have the doubt it can be legit is a plus on most other Kiyomaro.

I was told that is the blade to confirm the signature not the other way around so,

again, Brian is right in addressing you to Bob or to another good Togishi of your choice.

 

My sincere best wishes.

 

n.59

 

n.65

 

n.66

[mfarrar]

Looks like a nice sword and you got it for a very reasonable price. Ok it is probably a gimei and worst case scenario you polish it submit it for papers and it fails, well you can still have the signature removed and resubmit it and you may still get a good result.

 

The kissaki is quite bad but it looks like it should be able to be reshaped, plenty of boshi to work with.

 

If it were me I wouldn't be upset if it turned out not to be a Kiyomaro because you haven't payed kiyomaru money for it. You have nothing to lose by polishing and submitting it for papers because not matter what you should still have a nice sword at the end of the day and you wont have overspent on it.

 

Good luck with it

[Guest Lee]

Brian ,

 

Your right , Silly . Will have to give it to him when he is 17 or 18 . He can only look at it when I am in the same room on the table . Maybe I can teach him how to care for it. Latter , He can get it looked at. Give him something to look forward to. I do not think it would be worth the cost to restore ,cost to have a shinsa look at it, then the cost to have the signature removed ,then the cost to have it back to the shinsa . What $5,000+ ?

 

I do apologize to all the people who have took the time looking the sword up. Its too bad it could not be papered as for say Kiyomaro /Heijiro copy. I am sure people will want to look at these Gemei in years to come .

Forgot to add that just for the pure study of swords, I will try to post any pictures anyone needs . If the camera will take it.

Please look at pictures of number 59 that Carlo posted and the one Reinhard posted with the 3 swords . The third letter has no hooks above the two boxes like mine . Look at no. 65 file marks, seems to match mine on Carlo's pictures .I do not know about the file marks its hard to say. #65 do not look as upward as the others.

 

Thank you!

[Darcy]

This is a very good thread.

 

Jacques made an extremely valuable observation. Atari (hooks) are extremely important in recognizing whether a signature is good or not. The smith's typical placement is not in this mei. Reinhard's comparison oshigata shows it very clearly. Furthermore some of the free-standing atari are very weak.

 

The mei has been laid out with an intention to follow Kiyomaro, that's pretty clear. Someone worked from a template.

 

The slam dunk that ends the discussion is Moriyama san's analysis of the yasurime. They are very obviously different, and yasurime come up time and time again as a very conscious habit of the smith. If the yasurime are at a much different angle it is because the smith is orienting the blade and his tools differently, and these are as good a fingerprint as the mei.

 

The sword is gimei.

 

There were very talented forgers, I would be tempted to classify this as a Kajihei as it shows some of his traits... he could lay this kind of thing out from memory, and kind of slammed out his forgeries with a feeling of arrogance that it was good enough to get by and though if he would have applied himself even more carefully he could have replicated it even better. But one almost feels a smirk from this smith as he does it, almost like he is doing a less good job than he could because he knows it is good enough to fool the people he wants to and is almost giving them hints to catch him in the act.

 

Following this there were talented fakes happening in the Showa period as well.

 

A good temperline is not enough to confirm a bad mei. I would consider the blade to be gimei.

 

As usual, the advice with a big name is to double and triplecheck. Submit it for papers anyway. I have had a Nosada that everyone considered gimei based on the workmanship being atypical and then nitpicking the mei, and it passed NBTHK papering without a comment, and after polish was top notch sai-jo saku work.

 

So I hope for the owner that we're all wrong, but starting with Kiyomaro skepticism is required, and the board members have pointed out major inconsistencies from canonical Kiyomaro works.

 

What has not been pointed out yet is the haphazard alignment of the mei characters in regards to the shinogi line. In Reinhard's canonical example they are very tightly and obviously laid out in regards to the shinogi, and in the sample sword the shinogi is a non-factor.

[Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini]

I would be tempted to classify this as a Kajihei as it shows some of his traits...

 

...and I wouldn't be upset at all in discovering to have purchased for a low price such a "fake"...

[Guest Lee]

Darcy,

 

The middle picture of my mei is not flat on the table. Picture shows more of a gap than it is. I laid it down and compared it to the book , very very tiny space between the letter and the shiogi ridgeline of the sword. Wish you could hold the sword . The pictures are not showing the sword right. What do you think of no. 65 of Carlo's picture and the tanto Kiyomaro made ? The letters are away from this line. On this sword ,the line down the middle of the mei [raised part] in the book and the sword , is on the money. Who knows! Just a thought !

 

Lee

[Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini]

Lee, respectfully, check also the Yasuri from my pics.

If anybody of the ones that posted in this thread handled enough Kiyomaro's

to have a legitimacy in giving an opinion, that's Darcy (I dare to say and

with no offense meant to anybody).

[Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini]

Picture n.65 re-loaded to erase a scan defect the previous one had just in the center.