Mei Translation. Minamoto Kiyomaro?

[slavia631]

Greetings,

 

May I humbly ask your assistance in translating and evaluating this mei:

 

 

The smith seems to be one Minamoto Kiyomaro, but some research has found him to be a so called big-name smith, which leads me to think this could be gimei. Opinions?

[Guest Lee]

It says Minamoto [No] Kiyomaro , date: Kaei 2 nen8 gatsu jitsu = Late Edo period 1849. Signature looks good in my book. Sano Art Museum Kiyomaro/Kotetsu #58 & #59 in the book. Were you going to by the sword ?

[Guest Simon Rowson]

I agree with Lee. I just looked at the pages he indicated and the signature and date look like a very close match. If you are in the running to buy this (or have already bought it) and the blade isn't missing something vital (like everything beyond the nakago) you may well have made the Nihonto find of the decade.

Of course, now I'm waiting for the experts to inform us that Kiyomaro always signed something like "Minamoto Bunty Kiyomaro" in 1849 or that the yasurime are 0.0005 degrees at the wrong angle so, naturally, this has to be gimei.

[Eric H]

Tanto Kiyomaro, 28.0 cm, NBTHK Tokubetsu Hozon

 

Eric

[Jacques D.]

Hi,

 

Think it is gimei, Kyomaro had some special points in his mei and i don't find them on the blade shown by Slavia.

 

 

[Guest Lee]

I now own this sword that slavia631 posted the mei of . It was in auction . In the Sano Art Book it matches to a tee with the signature in the Kiyomaro/Kotetsu Book. #59 & #58 . The temper in the sunlight is just like the temper in the book. Has two grooves of Hi and Horimono with a Bonji letter on it. If I can get a picture listed you will see.

[Guest Simon Rowson]

Jacques D said:

Kyomaro had some special points in his mei and i don't find them on the blade shown by Slavia.

 

Care to elucidate?

[Brian]

Resized and uploaded the pics. No need for half a page of blanket

 

Brian

 

Ps - There's that square mekugi ana again! No-one seems to be able to give an explanation for those except for mis-shapen round holes. However that one is obviously very deliberate. Just a style or idiosyncrasy of certain smiths, or something else?

[Guest Lee]

I am no expert, I was looking at the chisel marks in each letter or I think you say kinji. The position of the letters Location. File marks .

[pcfarrar]

Ps - There's that square mekugi ana again! No-one seems to be able to give an explanation for those except for mis-shapen round holes. However that one is obviously very deliberate. Just a style or idiosyncrasy of certain smiths, or something else?

 

Isn't that the Kiyomaro tanto that was buried and they dug it up many years later and polished it.

[Jacques D.]

Hi,

 

Jacques D said:

Kyomaro had some special points in his mei and i don't find them on the blade shown by Slavia.

 

Care to elucidate?

 

Look at the picture below.

 

 

 

More, the way of engraving on the blade we discuss has a lack of strength and self confidence.

[Eric H]

Peter,

 

You are right. The tanto was offered for $ 94'500.-- by AOI.

 

Eric

[John A Stuart]

Hi Jacques, Kiyomaro did hook the verticals at the bottom early in his career when signing 'Ikkansai Masayuki'. Other than that I do not know how his Kiyomaro mei matured. Just for clarity. John

[IanB]

Brian,

Could the square holes be for a form of screwed mekugi? If the female part had a square body it would stop it turning. Never seen one but never say never.

Ian Bottomley

[Eric H]

Minamoto-no-Kiyomaro, Wakizashi 48.78 cm

 

Eric

[Guest Lee]

Jacques D.

I see what you are saying. There are some of those points in this book that run with the file marks . The temper in the sun light is just the same as #58 in the Sano Book Kiyomaro/Kotetsu. I read Kiyomaro had a stroke and later committed suicide 1854 . Some blades have to reflect this problem he had . This sword is 1849 who knows how long or when he had the stroke. The only way to know is to submit it to the NBTHK.

[slavia631]

 

Ps - There's that square mekugi ana again! No-one seems to be able to give an explanation for those except for mis-shapen round holes. However that one is obviously very deliberate. Just a style or idiosyncrasy of certain smiths, or something else?

 

Is it possible that the second mekugi-ana was deliberately made square because it intersects the other ana. If it were round it may be more conducive to slippage of the mekugi between holes (kind of like a channel-lock wrench). The squared second ana provides "corners" that could not likely be worn down enough to pose this problem.

 

Just a thought, the validity of which depends on whether the other square mekugi-ana you have seen intersect an adjacent ana?

[Ford Hallam]

This mei seems weak, and uncertain, to me. Kiyomaro was neither, with regard to his swords. Personally, however, he had some problems.... lack of belief in his own work wasn't one of them.

[Jacques D.]

Hi,

 

Lee,

 

This sword is 1849 who knows how long or when he had the stroke.

 

The blade on the last photo where is written the comment about the hooks, is from Kaei roku (1852).

[Guest Lee]

I guess Sano Art Museum needs to know about the three fake blades in the book . Anyone have the number I will call them. Just a joke there ! Seriously ! There are blades by him that do not follow those points. Sword in hand ,you would see that its more than the signature that defines the smiths work. Its how its made too. I agree that the horimono [ dragon claws ? ] on the side looks weak. No one knows by who or when it was put on the sword.

Have a good one !

[dkirkpatrick]

Lee,

 

I agree that without having sword in hand it is very much a matter of conjecture, looks to be nice work regardless. What I am curious about, if you're not tired of discussing this sword to death, is the kissaki/boshi. Among that which scared me away from this piece was my impression from the pictures is that the kissaki would have to be so re-shaped as to totally lose the boshi. However, the pics of the point were pretty dim and I was wondering what your thoughts are now being able to see both sides in good light.

 

Thanks,

Doug

[Guest Lee]

Doug,

I am looking at the sword right now ! The kissaki does need to be re-shaped and can be fixed. The Boshi is far enough away not to get into it. It must have had a long kissaki ,thank goodness. I know that 10 times out of 10 it will be a gimei in most cases. I bought it for the sword itself but, After getting it in my hands and doing hours of study with many books. I can not say its a gemei. I think its the real deal . I had a Bizen Nagamitsu sword one time and sold it. The guy had it polished and papered , it was a real Nagamitsu. Everyone said it was a gemei. I will not make that mistake anymore. There are very smart people on this site and wanted to get feedback from anyone who has thoughts on it. Maybe I missed something. I am No expert at all . Read the books then look at the sword. Who knows!

Thank you!

Lee

[Guest Simon Rowson]

Hi Jacques,

 

Thanks for the reply. To be honest it's rather difficult to make out exactly where those hooked strokes are placed in the original posted photos of this blade. For example, there seems to "pre-terminal" hooks on the date side but I can't really see the position clearly in the mei itself.

The signature looks no weaker to me than the examples in the Sano Museum book but I am certainly not a skilled metal craftsman like Ford.

However, one thing that does seem to differ from all the examples I've looked at is the lower "box" of the Kiyo kanji - in this example it's left side flares downwards and to the left whereas the photos in the Sano book (and others) show it as straight.

 

Whatever, Lee - it's a very nice sword and definitely one for shinsa.

[Brian]

Lee,

 

I think it is natural that everyone errs on the side of caution when talking about a big name like this. No real way to come to a full conclusion without a shinsa, and I assume that this one will definitely be heading for a full polish and then to shinsa.

Please keep us informed on the progress, and the result. I am sure we are all holding thumbs for you.

 

Brian

[pcfarrar]

The gunto mounts the sword was in are also very low quality examples. It seems quite unlikely that someone would mount a real Kiyomaro in such a poor quality koshirae.

 

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&item=130210014903

[Guest Simon Rowson]

Mmmmm - have to agree with Peter. It's the first time I've actually seen the eBay listing and I honestly believe that no IJA officer would spend big bucks on a genuine Kiyomaro and then have it decked out in such sub-standard gunto koshirae. Now that I can see the ken horimono clearly that also seems to be rather less than Kiyomaro-quality. Regardless of when it was carved, no-one would take a sword by the pre-eminent shin-shinto smith and have an amateur engraver attack it with a chisel.

Hope I'm wrong and Lee can eventually say "Ha ha - my sword passed Tokubetsu Juyo - I'm king of the world, Ma"

 

Regarding that square mekugi-ana on the legit Kiyomaro tanto, I think it's just a corrosion repair. You often see a Showa gendaito with a shiny, almost-pristine tang but with red rust around the mekugi ana (because this is where the moisture and dirt get in). If that tanto was buried for X number of years and needed such drastic re-shaping, then you can bet the mekugi-ana was also heavily corroded - even to the extent of having a section cut away in a pretty square.

[Guest Lee]

I agree with all on many points you bring up. In my view , its fake until I am told its real . Remember ,there are some poor looking Ken on some of these Masamune blades , in my opinion. As to the Gunto mounts , I think someone just put them on the sword to make it look better. The Tsuba does not match , habaki is silver and it is missing the saya [scabbard]. Back to the blade. The Vajra handle on the Ken to me looks poor. The rest of the sword looks great .Hope the sword turns out to be a lost Kiyomaro , we all benefit from it. You would not have to go to Japan to see a kiyomaro. The blade on its own is very well made. Pictures never give a sword justice .

 

Lee

[Guest Lee]

Hello,

 

Does anyone know if you sent a Kiyomaro, Kotetsu or Masamune blade off to have it Papered with the NBTHK . Could Japan keep the sword, under the agreement they had back in WWII to return swords ? I read this on David Pepin's website under National Treasures.

Simon , what sword do you have ?

 

 

Lee

[pcfarrar]

Does anyone know if you sent a Kiyomaro, Kotetsu or Masamune blade off to have it Papered with the NBTHK . Could Japan keep the sword, under the agreement they had back in WWII to return swords ?

 

Highly unlikely, that rule only applied to specific swords I believe. Why not send it to Bob Benson first? Or just submit it at the next US shinsa and see what they say.

[Guest reinhard]

This sword is a good exercise. The pics of the blade are not much of a help and the nakago is the most reliable source of information. I would like to show you an oshigata of a Kiyomaro-mei from the same year and month like the sword in question. On the left the oshigata, on the right the sword in question (I tried to enhance the quality of the pics without substantially changing them). BTW It doesn't make much sense to post just any mei connected to a particular ToKo, for many of them slightly altered their signatures during their career.

 

reinhard