Pet Dragon Solves Faux Roman Numeral Mystery!

[Bruce Pennington]

A while back, I discovered what seemed to be Roman Numerals on the edge of a habaki on my kaigunto with a Shinto blade. The "XXX I" matched the "31" on the seppa. But later, someone showed up with a similar habaki marked with "I I I I", and we all know that "IV" is Roman for 4. (BTW, if the guy with this habaki reads this PLEASE let me know, I'd love to post the pics!)

 

So, a bit of mystery. UNTIL NOW! Dave (Pet Dragon) has recently posted a Type 94 with fittings, and nakago marked with "/II IIII" and "74" on the seppa. The latch had "七 IIII". When I showed my habaki to Dave, he realized the "/" was HALF of "X"!

 

Whoever made these fittings modified the Roman Numeral system (or just didn't know it well enough) and was marking the items with their own system.

 

I'd appreciate it if anyone else has fittings marked in this manner to post them. What I would really like to see is some company identification on the fittings that would tie this numbering system to a company.

[Bruce Pennington]

Here's Dave's pics:

[Bruce Pennington]

And more:

[Shamsy]

I posted a number of these Bruce, which were linked in that thread. Why start another?

[Bruce Pennington]

  On 9/16/2017 at 11:22 PM, Shamsy said:

I posted a number of these Bruce, which were linked in that thread. Why start another?

How about just the link, Steve? That's what I was looking for before I started this one. We'll just include it here.

[Shamsy]

What I mean Bruce is that Dave already posted the link in the tread he started for the markings (see post 5), so I didn't really get why that thread wasn't just continued.

[Stephen]

manufactured mystery? 

[Bruce Pennington]

  On 9/17/2017 at 5:13 AM, Shamsy said:

What I mean Bruce is that Dave already posted the link in the tread he started for the markings (see post 5), so I didn't really get why that thread wasn't just continued.

Steve, I was actually looking for even ANOTHER thread where a guy was specifically asking for help with his roman markings, but I couldn't find it, and I had missed your post on that too!

 

So, I REALLY LIKE your thread on the Parade/Dress sword and would rather leave it as is. Tacking on a discussion like this would be a "hyjack" and turn the discussion away from your investigation. I think it also makes re-finding old subjects harder when they are imbedded in threads of another topic.

 

Would you mind if I copy your pics and add them? I sort-of hate to do it, though, because from the pics you've posted it looks like your markings on the nakaga are "IIII I/" which makes our mystery complicated again!

[Shamsy]

Ah, I see... I actually can't remember that thread that you're after, but I'll have a scan through some today and see if I can find it.

You're welcome to use any of my pictures anytime mate. I'll see if I can get one in focus on the nakago, because that wasn't a good shot at all. In fact, I'll take a whole new look at that sword and see what the markings look like.

We can consolidate all our info here, as the representative thread for these numerals!

 

EDIT:

So I had a look because this was really starting to interest me (probably just in time because I was going to sell this).

 

So from the photos attached, you can see that the end of the nakago has XIII cut into it (the other picture was just out of focus Bruce, it's hard to get a focus on a tiny area. Took me ages to take the new one). The habaki has, as does the fuchi, what is either VIII or XIII, but the second half of the strokes are a little faint (would be hard to get the file into the narrow space I suppose). Assuming that the system seems to be / representing 5, I would go with the explanation that it is hard to angle a file to make a good X in the tiny working area. The spring clip, tsuba and seppa are all marked 14. So if the theory holds, then XIII is 14, meaning that the sword blade and fittings match.

 

The saya throat and scabbard body both have /III, which I think then makes that an 8.

 

I'm glad this realisation has been made. I commented that I had found some little markings that I felt were made intentionally when I first started taking the sword apart and posting my results. It's pleasing to see that these are not the sole example, not to mention that they seem to be matching numbers for the entire sword. That adds some validity to my theory that the sword was original (though I even doubted the blade which is rather unusual and not as nicely made as Japanese craftsmanship should dictate).

[Bruce Pennington]

Wow Steve, how wild that they filed the number on the nakago jiri!!! And the 8 doesn't bother me since it means the gunto was assembled by the at the same place making these marks.

 

Speaking of "place" - major lead in chacing down the organization, coming from Thomas Appel Nillson at the Military Swords of Imperial Japan (Shin Gunto) on facebook! He's posted pics using the same numbering system, from 2 swords. Both are kaigunto and have the Toyokowa Navy Aresenal stamp, but differing contractor stamps on the seppa (T.E.C and a new one - Gunto Sei Saku Jo). Considering my example is also Navy, I'm starting to think that it is the Aresenal using this method as they assemble the parts to the blade. The confusing thing right now, though, is YOURS which is Army!

 

This could simply mean the practice was not isolated to a single arsenal. Hopefully more to come!

 

ps: the hash marks are hard to see on the first one, but they are there

[Pet Dragon]

I’m honored that my input has possibly helped solve a mystery! My thoughts on the numbering “file marks” were as follows.

 

A numbering system with two groups of numbers.

The first group may contain the numbers 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 and 10.

The second group may contain the numbers 1, 2, 3, 4 and 5.

Associating the file marks with the numbers as follows:

 

I = 1

II = 2

III = 3

IIII = 4

\ = 5

X = 10

 

The first group of numbers is added together and written down. If the number ends in a zero, the zero is discarded. The second group is added and written down next to the first group resulting in the final number.

 

My sword has the marking:  \II   IIII

 

               First Group         Second Group

                    \II = 7                      IIII = 4

Result     =    74

 

Steve’s sword has the marking:  X   IIII

 

               First Group         Second Group

                    X = 10                      IIII = 4

                  Drop Zero

               Result     =    14

 

Bruce’s sword has the marking:  XXX   I

 

                First Group        Second Group

                  XXX = 30                    I = 1

                  Drop Zero

               Result     =    31

 

Thomas’s sword has the marking:  XXXX   \IIII

 

               First Group           Second Group

                 XXXX = 40                   \IIII = 9

                 Drop Zero

                 Result     =    49

 

Having fun with this….  XI   \II = 117

XXXXXXXXX\IIII   \IIII  =  999

 

I only remember seeing production marks with up to three digits for these types of swords, I could be wrong on that, but if so this numbering system would stay within that boundary. Also, if there is a production mark that ended in a zero, there would be no need for a second group of numbers and the zero would be kept.

Your thoughts?

[TETSUGENDO]

  On 9/16/2017 at 5:22 PM, Bruce Pennington said:

A while back, I discovered what seemed to be Roman Numerals on the edge of a habaki on my kaigunto with a Shinto blade. The "XXX I" matched the "31" on the seppa. But later, someone showed up with a similar habaki marked with "I I I I", and we all know that "IV" is Roman for 4. (BTW, if the guy with this habaki reads this PLEASE let me know, I'd love to post the pics!)

 

So, a bit of mystery. UNTIL NOW! Dave (Pet Dragon) has recently posted a Type 94 with fittings, and nakago marked with "/II IIII" and "74" on the seppa. The latch had "七 IIII". When I showed my habaki to Dave, he realized the "/" was HALF of "X"!

 

Whoever made these fittings modified the Roman Numeral system (or just didn't know it well enough) and was marking the items with their own system.

 

I'd appreciate it if anyone else has fittings marked in this manner to post them. What I would really like to see is some company identification on the fittings that would tie this numbering system to a company.

 

Bruce, it is a long established convention to substitute llll for lV on clock and watch dials, this lead to the interchange of the two in many other circumstances.

 

-S-

[Bruce Pennington]

Interesting Steven! I still wonder, though, about using the "\" for "five".

[TETSUGENDO]

Hi Bruce,

 

Unfortunately I don't know any more than you do, that is at this point '\ '  for 'five' appears to work....there is nothing I can site as precedent.  Future examples will prove if this is something that was in 'general' use or not, only time will tell.

 

Most interesting!

            -S-

[Bruce Pennington]

Got another one on a Mantetsu. Fittings numbered "62" and the habaki had the "/I II" which would translate to 6 2.

 

[Bruce Pennington]

@paul griff just posted a pristine Type 94 HERE in the For Sale Forum with a tsuka marked with both the "7" and the Roman numeral "/ II".  Quite unusual to have both on the same piece.  The seppa simply have the "7".

Edit: After re-reading the thread, I saw that, in post #3, the chuso had a Japanese 7 with Roman 4.  So the mixing isn't unusual apparently.

 

 

[PNSSHOGUN]

Hi Bruce, that is not a Type 94 in any way. 

[Bruce Pennington]

  On 7/21/2021 at 2:34 AM, PNSSHOGUN said:

Hi Bruce, that is not a Type 94 in any way. 

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Isn’t that tsuba the wider size?

[PNSSHOGUN]

It isn't pierced, Type 94 will generally only have pierced Tsuba. Thick size solid Tsuba may be indicative of early production Type 98. 

[Bruce Pennington]

OK thanks. The thickness was all I was going by. And you are the pro on fittings! I noticed the chuso was in the lower position, but recalled the good discussion we all had about that.  It would support the idea that this was a Type 98 though, generally speaking (I know, I know!).

[PNSSHOGUN]

Far from a pro, just specifically interested in Type 94. 

[Bruce Pennington]

Here's an "8 8" on a gunto posted at Wehrmacht-Awards.  Mumei Type 98.  Matches the number on the tsuba/seppa:

[BANGBANGSAN]

@Bruce Pennington

Found one with #493. Seems like they put them on both sides of the edge if more than 2 digits.

 

[Bruce Pennington]

  On 8/31/2022 at 5:29 PM, BANGBANGSAN said:

#493.

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This is interesting, Trystan.  We now have 3 mumei, stainless blades, in kaigunto with gourd stamps.

 

ワ 119; proposed Kawagoe factory; from @robinalexander

384; Toyokawa Anchor; from @Kai-Gunto

493 (Roman numeral) from you

 

The ワ 119 had the unknown stamp on the seppa:

 

But all 3 of these use different numbering systems, potentially meaning 3 different fitting shops?  The gourd, if not a shop stamp, could then be a forge logo.

[robinalexander]

Tks for staying with the 'gourd' mystery Bruce @Bruce Pennington

[John C]

  On 10/4/2018 at 7:25 PM, Bruce Pennington said:

Interesting Steven! I still wonder, though, about using the "\" for "five".

Expand  

Reviving this old thread with some additional information.

I have a showato marked 0904 in Japanese on all fittings. The exceptions are 0904 written with Western numerals on the saya insert and the roman numerals on the habaki. Interestingly, the assembler used "X" as the "0". It is difficult to see, however the habaki is marked X /IIII X IIII. So in some cases, X could mean 0 rather than 10? In addition, the inside of the fuchi is marked with a hybrid system X 9(Japanese number)  X  4(Japanese number).

John C.

[Bruce Pennington]

That is an interesting modification to the system!  Backed up, too, with the numbers on the other fittings.  Thanks for the post!

[John C]

  On 5/24/2023 at 7:18 PM, Bruce Pennington said:

numbers on the other fittings

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Bruce:

Have you seen the roman numeral system used on naval dirks? I recently purchased a dirk that looks like someone attempted to mark the parts using roman numerals, however the marks look new.

John C.

[Bruce Pennington]

John,

Don't have one in the files (now I do!).  Got 2 or 3 on Kaigunto, though.  I see what you mean about the new look to the cuts, although, there is some black in the first /\ and the first I on the nakago.  

 

I suspect there is more out there, but how many people disassemble their dirks?  I would, but my sakura hangs up on the wire wrap when I try to unscrew it, so I've left it alone rather than break the wire.

[John C]

  On 6/2/2023 at 11:33 PM, Bruce Pennington said:

I would, but my sakura hangs up on the wire wrap when I try to unscrew it, so I've left it alone rather than break the wire.

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Ha! This one came with a broken wire and stuck sakura screw. Screw was no problem to get out. Someone jammed it in because it is too long. Probably a replacement.

I also found it interesting they tried to stamp the 58 as XXX + XX + whatever, rather than just / + /III.

John C.