What Does The Term "art Sword" Mean To You?

[Jean]

We don't strictly opposed in our opinions, Jacques.

 

Concerning mukansa, your remark is interesting because it explains clearly what I meant. A smith is promoted mukansa because of its past awards which means he had already the level but not the title. The swords he made after being promoted are not necessarily better than the ones he did before. So to become a mukansa you are judged on your past activities when you were not declared "jo" saku smith or above.

 

Concerning Shinsa, you are forgetting that the gentlemen in Shinsa teams are very conservatives and very difficult to move on. It is the same with paintings. If you are not considered by experts as a master or a very good artist, whatever the quality of your best painting, be it equal to a master one, it shall remain the painting of a middle artist.

 

Concerning your last remark, it is exactly what I mean, you are alienated to experts' expertise to consider a blade as art object or not. Or experts are equally subject to conservatism, the best example was the impressionists, Van Gogh sold only one painting during his life...

 

The art notion is a concept difficult to define and even more to be agreed on universally because it requires not only skill (which is a necessary component) but something else which could be a "soul"

[Jacques D.]

Jean 

 

Beware Dunning-Kruger effect...

[Jean]

Jacques,

 

I let your comment so members can see your true nature.

 

I have just pushed the button which enables me to ignore all your posts taking into account your lack of maturity... goodbye

[Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini]

-

 

Nevermind...

[nagamaki - Franco]

 

 

Kantei has nothing do do with art or good workmanship. - Jacques D.

 

Please, by all means correct me, but if you read the NBTHK English Journals, Sato san writes an entire kantei article discussing extensively how quality is the 2nd step in kantei, which he goes on to say is too often overlooked. 

[Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini]

Jean 

 

Beware Dunning-Kruger effect...

 

From Wikipedia ( I know, not an academic source but...)

 

Quote...

 

In the field of psychology, the Dunning–Kruger effect is a cognitive bias wherein persons of low ability suffer from illusory superiority, mistakenly assessing their cognitive ability as greater than it is. The cognitive bias of illusory superiority derives from the metacognitive inability of low-ability persons to recognize their own ineptitude.

 

... Unquote

 

Jacques are you so sure to be immunized ?  Evidence is your constant search for recognition at all costs.

 

Yet another good thread locked for stupid reasons...

[Jussi Ekholm]

This will be a bit longwinded post I'll guess as it is bit hard to put my thoughts into short sentences that make my point, and I will have few quotes by famous persons which show "the correct" way to art swords, which is way different from my own but I agree with them that it would be "the proper way". The quotes come from article by Nobuo Ogasawara - Meito, or what makes a masterpiece from the NBTHK EB book about Solingen display in 2002.

 

I personally think there are 3 types of collecting, historical, martial arts and art. I classify myself being of the 1st type. I collect swords because of their historical value as weapons and items of past times. I don't sign myself to the art crowd, yes I agree that some of the top swords could be art to many but for me they are top tier historical items. As a historical collector I see swords as objects that should be preserved so I don't encourage martial arts use of old swords.

 

3 quotes from that article by Nobuo Ogasawara

 

 

Meito therefore have certain traits.

They are born of care, skill and good quality steel, and their evaluation does not change from age to age. They have certain minimum characteristic in their sugata, jitetsu, hataraki and hamon. These points may sound very abstract but you will certainly understand that Meito display their qualities in their own right, After that it is up to each of us how far we are receptive to their properties.

 

------

 

Now, I should like to say something about collecting Japanese swords.

 

Having realized the qualities and attractiveness of the sword it is natural to wish to own some. The most inconvenient thing about this, I think you will agree, is of a financial nature. If we think only about economics in this way we shall end up getting cheap swords which may easily be disposed of when necessary. This is perhaps understandable, but the true collector learns to transcend financial limitations

 

We collect swords nowadays because we appreciate them as art objects. We do not collect them because of their excellence as weapons. Nevertheless the essence of the sword is its effectiveness as a weapon, and it's superiority as a weapon is expressed in the beauty of its sugata, in the brightness of its jihada, and in the beauty of the hamon.

 

-----

 

The feeling for a Meito exists only inside us, and has really nothing to do with the works of famous swordsmiths or with expensive swords. However, you must have the knowledge to understand and appreciate it. The sense of feeling attached to the swords is very important.

 

Also Michael Hagenbusch wrote article - The Japanese Sword, Reflections on the Sword as a work of Art for the same book which is incredible read. There are so much good stuff in these 2 articles that it would be quote after quote, so I took only the above 3 ones.

 

Now some members here might already know that I personally have very strong bias to Kotō blades and I appreciate swords that were made in the time when warfare was going one. And yes due to me being a historical collector I would choose weaker old sword over much better new sword just because it is my own opinion. For someone focusing on art swords that might sound crazy.

 

For example museum displays and top tier shops carry a display of Meito. It is easy to understand for example that every item on display on Tokyo National Museum for example is a Meito in it's own right. Some could be understood instantly, however some required much closer eyeing. One of my favorite swords ended up being Senjuin tachi that was not as highly regarded as neighbouring swords were. Likewise there was a remarkable sword by Horikawa Kunihiro on one shop. It was spectacular sword, easy to understand the sword is a Meito but personally it had 0 draw on me. On the opposite end one shop had a signed Gojō Kanenaga tachi and that was on a whole another level for me, such a rare wonderful item.

 

Here are some thoughts, for myself I understand my limitations that I might never be an art sword collector but I appreciate them a lot. However for me personally seeing Meito is a rare occasion. I know for a fact that if I would see Meito more often my appreciation would only grow larger. That is why I always encourage people to visit sword meets, sword shops etc. While owning them is an impossibility for me at the moment I can still enjoy seeing them and trying to study them. For example those who live in Japan or around major European/US collecting hubs are in the fortunate spot to be able to enjoy high level swords on a regular basis.

 

I think this quote from Michael Hagenbusch is a good ending to my post.

 

 

Nevertheless if one is truly interested in the "Art sword" it is advisable not to invest time and effort in low level blades. If there is real interest in the Japanese sword, there are only two ways to train the eyes and increase one's knowledge:

First, look at good swords under good guidance ; and secondly study the literature intensively.

 

[Okiiimo]

I wish honor and humility were prerequisites for nihonto ownership - some show it but when others lack it, it shows up in a thread like this as an open sore. The divergence of personal interpretation of the meaning of "art sword" is so broad and so personal that the meaning of the term seems to be diluted to insignificance.

[FlorianB]

Quotation from above:

        “ "Swords are utilarian objects before all".

            They are not anymore and modern swords are still considered as art.”


Maybe it wasn’t expressed proper: a sword - if old or modern - has to be a functioning weapon at least - even if it isn’t used in battles nowadays.

Please remember: the tiniest hagire kicks a blade from the heights of art to the hollow of scrap because it is considered to break IF You would fight with it.

 

The usefulness of a sword is therefore one aspect of the art.

 

Florian

[estcrh]

Just an observation....I collect and study swords from many different cultures and I have never seen any non-Japanese sword described as being an "art sword", this includes the most incredible Persian, Indian and Ottoman swords with damascus steel blades.

[Jean]

Florian,

 

It is the same with a lot of Arts. How do we call a bridge in French if not an "ouvrage d'art". Before all, a bridge is made for crossing an obstacle, if broken, the notion of Art disappear. The functionality of some art objects are inherent to the Art. Do not forget that Art implies human hands, and if some arts are abstract a lot are before all functional.

[Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini]

Functional and art piece : Arco Flos, MOMA New York. :

[Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini]

Just an observation....I collect and study swords from many different cultures and I have never seen any non-Japanese sword described as being an "art sword", this includes the most incredible Persian, Indian and Ottoman swords with damascus steel blades.

 

So this must be a mistake...

 

http://www.wallacecollection.org/whatson/treasure/70

 

Quote..

 

The actual watered pattern or ferind is also called jauhar / johar (Arabic) meaning lustre, jewel or precious piece or watered steel, reflecting the value of a blade made from crucible steel

 

...unquote.

 

Eric, do a favour to yourself. Read This. I helped to take pics for Manouhcher;You can get in touch with him on SFI and ask directly if no persian sword has ever been labeled as "art sword" considering the blade..

 

https://www.amazon.com/Arms-Armor-Iran-Bronze-Period/dp/3932942221

[IJASWORDS]

Interesting view points discussed. Does the term "art for arts sake" have relevance to blades, that also have a functional purpose? Obviously yes. A sword could be made from steel strip, knocked out in a press, and even heat treated. It would probably be quite functional, but art, no. As a metallurgist I would say that the first step in sword making, the TAMAHAGNE, is more an art than a science. Pictured for comparison, is a KOA ISSHIN MANTETSU, a YASKUNI, a GENDAI TO, and a STAR STAMPED GENDAI TO, all made in 1941 to 1943. They were all made for war use. Which ones if any are art swords? Surprisingly, the blade made by uniting two pieces of steel made in an electric furnace, is probably one of the more sought after. Go figure.

My mother collected tea cups, hand made hand painted. You could functionally drink teas from them, but tell her they were not art, you were in for an argument.