Early Mei

[kissakai]

Hi

I wondered if anyone has a pre Edo tsuba mei?

I have 6 that are C1700 and only one that may be earlier

It would be nice to find the earliest example

 

PS this will be my 1,000 post which amazes me but so many members put this number to shame

 

 

Grev UK

 

[dominnimod]

Maybe i'm wrong, but as far as i know the signing habit started in the edo period, as tsuba making got more complex.

Not idea if pre edo signatures exist.

[Steve Waszak]

Hi Grev,

 

There are actually quite a few tsubako who were chiseling their mei prior to Edo times.  Among them are the Nobuiye men, Kaneie, the Yamakichibei tsubako, Hoan, Sadahiro, Umetada Mitsutada, and Umetada Myoju.  There are also rare examples of other signed works believed to be pre-Edo, such as pieces by Myochin Takayoshi and Nobusada.  The practice of signing tsuba appears to become established during the Momoyama Period, though it was still relatively infrequent considering all the tsuba makers working then. 

[Curran]

What Steve said +1

 

He hit most of the early guys that came to mind, including Umetada Myoju

[rkg]

I've seen/shot a signed tsuba dated Tensho 3.  Its pictured in that supplement I did for the KTK's 2005 catalog as well as Haynes's book titled Gai So Shi.

 

I hope that helps.

 

Best,

rkg

(Richard George)

[christianmalterre]

and there is the earlier one from the Dutch collection...

just am actually searching....can not find it in mine mess...

 

me

[SteveM]

and congratulations on the 1000th post!

[christianmalterre]

believe me Steve M.!

 

living in Tokyo does not help you here....

!

 

me

[rkg]

Actually, thinking about it, I have another tsuba that probably is pre-edo that is signed:

www.facebook.com/pg/Kod%C3%B4gu-no-Sekai-%E5%B0%8F%E9%81%93%E5%85%B7%E3%81%AE%E4%B8%96%E7%95%8C-266005023454853/photos/?tab=album&album_id=1023433461045335

www.facebook.com/266005023454853/photos/a.266009073454448.82484.266005023454853/1127046177350729/?type=3&theater

It is signed Nobuiye, so You'd think some late Edo/Meiji dealer type would have added it maybe as its pretty thin, but... if you look at it under the microscope (2nd link) it sure looks like its under the patina.

Obviously it could have been repatinated, but if it was it must have been done a loooong time ago or its actually contemporary to the piece. So, is it by the Nobuiye who's supposedly was the first saotome artisan (as per the genealogy in Sesko's book derived from "Kokon-kaji hayami-de", - a myochin guy) or some hack cashing in on the Nobuiye craze? I don't know...

The funny part is that Haynes owned this piece for a while and never saw the mei...

Best,
rkg
(Richard George)

 

EDIT: lest somebody else gets confused, the Nobuiye I'm talking about here (if the mei is good/if he existed), is a guy that was named Nobuiye that was supposedly the founder of what we call the saotome group these days - I don't believe he had ANYTHING to do with the "real" big guy nobuiye.

[kissakai]

Nice tsuba

[Brian]

Like that tsuba a lot Rich, lovely one.

[Steve Waszak]

Rich,

 

Yeah, I've always liked this piece...    You may want to do a bit of comparison study of the mei on this tsuba with those appearing on some of the kabuto with Nobuiye's name.  Going by memory (always reliable... ), the rendering of the mei here with those I've seen photos of on the helmets seems to have some similarity.  There is, of course, a rather large amount of debate/controversy surrounding "Myochin Nobuiye," though, with some arguing that he is a mythological figure, and that all Nobuiye mei on extant kabuto are fakes, so it may be hard/impossible to draw any solid conclusions about the mei on this tsuba and any of those on the kabuto. 

[christianmalterre]

the "Myochin" / "Nobuie" relationship already "got closed"- so far?

 

we do find lots of these "missing tarts" in a lot of literature pamphlets browsing around.

 

eitherway... - do throw me a stone,as soon this matter is solved officially....so far...

 

very keen to read about any new ideas !    ....

 

so maybe i can learn something new in future ????

 

[John A Stuart]

This tsuba by Nagayoshi may be pre Azuchi-Momyama by some decades. This Kyoto tsubako dates 1550 to 1600, so could preceed it or be smack in the middle of it. John

[Steve Waszak]

Thanks for posting this, John.  Curiously, I was looking at this very tsuba just last night in regard to early mei...    However, these dates for him are, I think, a little ambitious on the early end.  To me, his work expresses a sensibility that is more Azuchi-Momoyama to earliest Edo than Muromachi. 

[John A Stuart]

It could be. I wonder at the sinchu composition as compared to earliest Edo period. It has a different appearance. John