vajo Posted August 31, 2017 Report Posted August 31, 2017 I recieved yersterday evening a blade from a trade here in NMB. The blade is very nice and healthy and was polished in Japan a couple of month ago. This morning i take a deeper look on the blade and after removing the choji with uchiko i found 3 spots of rust on the blade. The biggest one is maybe <1mm and under macro you see a very thin ware where it rust. My question is how what is the best way to handle the spots? If you take a fast look you didn't see them, but if you know the place you look on it. I have a old mumei koto wakizashi with a fresh Japanese polish from a member here with a single rust spot on the kissaki. The blade was cheap so i didn't care much about it. But this blade now is much more worth. So I'm a little afraid about the iron cancer on it. I oild the blade no with caramba70 (maybe like WD40). I think it is more liquid than choji to go in the blade. Quote
Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini Posted August 31, 2017 Report Posted August 31, 2017 Small spots of superficial rust could be removed using improvised tools of ivory or bone AND A LOT OF PRUDENCE. However if there is a ware we don't really know if the rust is working under the skin, not knowing if and how the ware develop in depth. Freshly polished blade are very fragile under this point of view and should be oiled very frequently. 1 Quote
vajo Posted August 31, 2017 Author Report Posted August 31, 2017 Hello Carlo thank you for your advice. Do you think it is good to use a modern oil like WD40 oder Caramba70 in this case. I oiled it very well and let the blade outside for half an hour to give the oil a chance to crawl into the blade before i remove that many oil and put it in shira saya. With enough oil there is no oxygen to rust further? Quote
PNSSHOGUN Posted September 1, 2017 Report Posted September 1, 2017 Why are you using Uchiko still??? Quote
Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini Posted September 1, 2017 Report Posted September 1, 2017 Hello Carlo thank you for your advice. Do you think it is good to use a modern oil like WD40 oder Caramba70 in this case. I oiled it very well and let the blade outside for half an hour to give the oil a chance to crawl into the blade before i remove that many oil and put it in shira saya. With enough oil there is no oxygen to rust further? I still use oil that Paul Martin provided me years ago, made by a Mukansa and honestly I have no experience with modern oils. I try to replace oil very very rarely even limiting the time I spend with my blades. You're right in saying that oil leave no space to oxigen however in the period (till to one year) after a professional polish might occur what happened to you due to small pinholes that maintain H2O from the Togi process. The blade "breathe" hence the need to oil frequently a freshly polished blade. 2 Quote
vajo Posted September 1, 2017 Author Report Posted September 1, 2017 Hi John, when the blade is oiled with a natural oil like choji i use uchiko. If it is a modern oil i use a solvent based cleaner like avery. I do it in the way of Tsuruta San. http://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/21327-care-and-cleaning-by-tsuruta-san/ 1 Quote
Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini Posted September 1, 2017 Report Posted September 1, 2017 Alcohol the closest to 100° you can get. Quote
vajo Posted September 1, 2017 Author Report Posted September 1, 2017 Carlo ist Isopropylalcohol with 99,9% ok? https://www.amazon.de/dp/B00B77QTGO?psc=1 Quote
Ed Harbulak Posted September 1, 2017 Report Posted September 1, 2017 Yes, 99.9% isopropylalcohol is excellent. Quote
Ken-Hawaii Posted September 2, 2017 Report Posted September 2, 2017 when the blade is oiled with a natural oil like choji i use uchiko. Chris, I don't understand what you are saying. Oil protects the surface of the blade from oxidation (rust), while uchiko scours the surface. If you have one rust spot, then you shouldn't be using uchiko - you should be using a small piece of bone or ivory on just that spot. Ken Quote
vajo Posted September 2, 2017 Author Report Posted September 2, 2017 I didn't treat the spot with uchiko Ken. I use uchiko as i recieved the blade from shipping to look what i have. The blade was oiled with choji (Nelkenöl). And uchiko takes the old oil away from the blade and clean it. That is what uchiko is made for. Maybe my english is not perfect, sorry. Btw, it is not red rust. I think the rust spot is older. Maybe the blade was in bad condition before polish. Quote
ROKUJURO Posted September 2, 2017 Report Posted September 2, 2017 Chris,In most cases, CHOJI oil isn't a 'natural' oil. It is mainly a low viscosity mineral oil (carbon hydrate or paraffine) with a little (vegetal) CHOJI oil as fragrance. We had treated this subject some time back on the board. Modern lubricants can have significantly better protection capacities than paraffine, but a lot depends on the thickness of the lubricant film.The other side is: You don't want any oil in the SAYA, be that in a SHIRA SAYA or KOSHIRAE, so you should not leave oil on the blade when it goes back into the SAYA. This underlines the importance of a well made SHIRA SAYA, as it keeps the amount of air/oxygen around the blade very low. 1 Quote
vajo Posted September 2, 2017 Author Report Posted September 2, 2017 Hi Jean, thanks. The picture above is not that what i put with the blade in the saya. Its a macro picture of the spot with the caramba 70 oil. I didn't care longer of this tiny little spot. It is obviously old oxidation. I oil the blade with a high quality oil and clean in the future with isopropylalcohol. Btw Caramba70 oil smells now like vanilla Quote
paul griff Posted September 2, 2017 Report Posted September 2, 2017 Hello Chris, Neutralise the rust and it will bother you no more...! When it's brown it's active...get it black....I use copper to clean it then Renaissance de- corroder...Done lot's of swords over the years and it's always worked....Just my opinion...If I found the missing Masamune I'd still use it ! Regards, Paul. 1 Quote
Stephen Posted September 2, 2017 Report Posted September 2, 2017 Be sure not to display/store in the sun. Quote
vajo Posted September 2, 2017 Author Report Posted September 2, 2017 Paul the renaissance de-corroder is not renaissance wax, is it right? Is it this one? http://www.kremer-pigmente.com/de/renaissance-metal-de-corroder-62902.html Quote
SwordGuyJoe Posted September 2, 2017 Report Posted September 2, 2017 So how long should one give a freshly polished blade extra attention? How frequently should one clean a freshly polished blade? Quote
Brian Posted September 2, 2017 Report Posted September 2, 2017 There was an old saying I read somewhere, regarding re-oiling a freshly polished blade.Once a day for a week. Once a week for a month. Once a month for a year.Not sure how true it is. Guido will be able to advise better. 1 Quote
SwordGuyJoe Posted September 2, 2017 Report Posted September 2, 2017 Only using uchiko of course (kidding) 1 Quote
Jean Posted September 2, 2017 Report Posted September 2, 2017 Joe, Search the Forum, it has already been addressed Quote
vajo Posted September 2, 2017 Author Report Posted September 2, 2017 Joe i ask myself why has a fresh polished blade a rust spot as i get it? I think the blade is here not unknown. So since the spot has come? And the spot will surley not go away from alone when i now start to oíl it everyday. I'm the owner of the blade since thursday. The blade comes with that spot(s) Quote
Brian Posted September 2, 2017 Report Posted September 2, 2017 Didn't want to mention it, but may as well.Spots like this are exactly the sort of damage you can get when talking over a blade. That is why during kantei they sometimes wear masks, or sometimes hold a piece of cloth in their lips.Not saying it is what happened, but only takes a word or 2 to end up with a rust spot.I wouldn't panic. 1 Quote
vajo Posted September 2, 2017 Author Report Posted September 2, 2017 Brian the sword came from USA to Germany. It was sealed as i get it. No one had his hands on. I unpacked it at home in the morning and see it. So my thought is the spot was there as i bought it from a member here. 1 Quote
paul griff Posted September 2, 2017 Report Posted September 2, 2017 Hello Chris, Yes,that's the one...That 1 litre will de- corrode all the blades in the country but that's the smallest container...You only use a small amount ....Had mine for years and it doesn't seem to degrade.....The wax is also very good,they use it in The British Museum...again,a small container last's for years...I Don't put the wax on my Japanese blades but wouldn't be without it for my other swords.... Regards, Paul. 1 Quote
paul griff Posted September 2, 2017 Report Posted September 2, 2017 Chris,sorry,forgot to add....Have a friend who buy's lots of swords and some are obviously freshly polished in Japan...I do suspect they are what some label " commercially polished " and you have to keep an eye on the blade for weeks on the next Just in case some moisture surfaces....Not sure if it's in the metal or from being put in the saya without being correctly dried and cleaned....but not a problem if spotted in time....Just keep an eye on it..! After the de-corroder is used,no problems.... Regards, Paul. 1 Quote
Jean Posted September 3, 2017 Report Posted September 3, 2017 Paul, They are also probably commercial blades or as some dealers in the States call them "Merchs" for merchandise 1 Quote
vajo Posted September 3, 2017 Author Report Posted September 3, 2017 Thanks Paul, very helpful! I understand to use only a little drop on the corrorsion. What doing after this? Some comments say after the de-corroder you must wash it up under water? Quote
paul griff Posted September 3, 2017 Report Posted September 3, 2017 Hello Chris, Yes,wash it off with clean water,dry thoroughly and the next part can be a bit contentious and you can ignore it if you are happy with the result thus far..I use solvol autosol chrome cleaner on a cotton bud ( the cotton ball on a stick people are not supposed to clean their ears with but they do ) to polish the damaged area...It's superfine so won't damage a polished blade,then one pass over the blade with an alcohol wipe ( the small ones used in the medical profession are best ) then oil as you would normally...Personally I don't use uchiko powder on polished blades just alcohol and choji oil.....but that's only my take on things....don't want to step on any toes or start a cleaning war ! Regards, Paul. 1 Quote
paul griff Posted September 3, 2017 Report Posted September 3, 2017 Hello Jean, Yes,commercial polish I believe machine done for a fast turnover... Regards, Paul.. Quote
Dave R Posted September 3, 2017 Report Posted September 3, 2017 Hello Jean, Yes,commercial polish I believe machine done for a fast turnover... Regards, Paul.. Something frequently seen on dealers tables. 2 Quote
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