New Purchase Nightmare

[Ben9806]

First post here for me, I wish it was about something else, but could do with some advice on a few matters.

Firstly I was wondering if anyone had come across this wakizashi before, any resent history would be very helpful. (Izu No Kami Fusiwara Kinmichi)

Secondly, I think I've found three cracks in the blade, hagire, admittedly I'm no expert and was wondering by the photos if this could be confirmed

Thirdly, I've just purchased this blade with no mention of any flaws in the advertisement, and I'm unsure now of its worth and how to go forward, any advice would be much welcomed.

[ROKUJURO]

Ben,

welcome to the board!

It is difficult to judge with photos if there are scratches or really HAGIRE, but I think I see at least one of them plus some WARE/pinholes. 

The sales conditions and the seller's fairness decide what you can do. If the blade was described as free of flaws then you should talk to the seller and possibly give the blade back with full refund. 

Sometimes a very low price hides the possibility of purchasing a defective blade.

The value depends on many factors. A very rare old blade from a famous smith with superb quality, but some serious flaws may still have a good value as studying object while a SHINTO blade with the same KIZU might lose most of its 'normal' market value, compared to intact blades.

 

[Ben9806]

Hi Jean

 

thank you, I agree without seeing the blade in person it's hard to say for sure, a full refund is an option for me, however I'm reluctant as the blade will possibly be sold again in the same manner and someone else will have the same problem, and also the rarety of this maker appeals to me although he wasn't the best.

I guess my next move would depend on the worth of the blade knowing now the faults it has.

[Geraint]

Hi Ben.

 

Sorry to hear that your first sword has caused you problems. I guess the first step is to show it to someone who can confirm in hand the hagire, the other flaws were mentioned in the description but hagire were not.  They can be hard to spot and in hand is the only way to be sure I think. Not sure where you are in the UK but there are quite a few of us here and one of us is probably in fairly easy reach for you if that is something you would like to pursue.  If it came from where I think it did then the returns policy might be your best bet,

 

"All Internet / email customers have the right to return an item within two weeks of receipt for a full refund if the item is not as described / depicted in the photographs. EU customers have additional rights to cancel for any reason within 7 working days of receipt of the item(s) under 97/7/EC (in such cases the customer is obliged to return the item / items to us at their own cost). Any insurance element paid in the shipping cost is NOT refundable if the item / items has / have already been shipped / sent. If you wish to return an item for refund, please contact us by email first"

 

 

Did you ask for the full size pictures?   Even if you did then this might be hard to spot.  I hope you can resolve this but above all don't let it put you off.  If you are in the northern half of the country then join the Northern Token society, great bunch of people and a chance to see some good stuff.  If in the south then the same for the Token Society of Great Britain, who have a meeting coming up in  Northumberland in October.  http://to-ken.uk/home/news.html

 

All the best

[vajo]

The last picture ist hagire, i would bet.

[Dave R]

 Depending on where you are. There is a meeting tonight, 19.30 to 21.00 at the Royal Armouries Leeds, in the Library, where you can get an informed opinion of the sword if you bring it along. Please note, security have a habit of locking the doors once they think we are all in, so earlier is better than later.

[Ben9806]

That's great, I'll have a look at that.

Yes I did ask and even in the full size photos they can't be seen, I only saw them two days after purchase when I sat down to clean it and the light caught it just right, now I know they're there they stand out every time I look at it. It's hard to photograph them as the light needs to be just right.

Having someone to take a look would be really helpful, I'm in Skipton, North Yorkshire and will quite happily travel to anyone offering their help close by. The polishers I've spoken to don't really want to get involved as they may loose future work, which in my eyes is totally understandable.

[Ben9806]

Dave, that's brilliant, just a short train journey away, do they have these often? Maybe a struggle for me this evening but I'm going to try my best to get there. That's great thank you.

[Ben9806]

The last pic is the best shot of one of them I've managed so far

[Ben9806]

Dave, is Stuart Ivinson the guy I'd need to contact for that meeting or will you be there yourself?

[Ben9806]

If anyone has any info for me but doesn't want to pop if on for everyone to see please feel free to pm me, everything pm'd will of cause be treated in the manner you request it to be.

[Ben9806]

On my way back from the armouries in Leeds now, thanks again Dave and it was great to see you.

The general feeling is that the marks were not cracks but deep scratches that someone has tried to polish out. And there are signs of a polishing wheel being used to do this.

Also looking forward to seeing it after John's given it the polish it deserves. All in all a very relieving evening.

Next to apologise to Mark for causing him so much stress.

[seanyx11]

I'm glad you were able to work it out and find some experienced collectors to study it with.  Just out of curiosity, did you figure out which Kinmichi made it?  In your first post you said that it was Izumi no kami Kinmichi, but Izumi no kami was usually given to Rai Kinmichi and there is definitely no "Rai" in the mei.  Plus, I'm fairly certain it doesn't say "Izumi", but it doesn't look like "Iga" either.  All I can definitively make out, is "kami fujiwara Kinmichi". 

 

I'm very new to collecting and just started to attempt to read mei a few weeks ago, so I'm just trying to make sure I'm correct in my comprehension of the mei.  I actually have an Izumi (no) Kami Rai Kinmichi (3rd generation) wakizashi, so I'm interested in the 5 main Mishina lines of smiths and the differences in their mei.  Any info would be great, thanks

[Marius]

You don't need any specialist to help you. It is very simple to determine if the flaw shown on your picture is a hagire. If you see it on one side of a blade, it is a scratch, if it is an identical line on both sides of the blade, it is a crack.

 

I shouldn't say that, since it is so obvious, but since nobody has mentioned it...

[IanB]

Having looked at the blade last night I am pleased to say I couldn't see any hagire, but it has been on a linisher or something similar that had left some transverse scratches that haven't been taken out.  I became distracted by other things before really looking at the signature.

Ian Bottomley 

[Ben9806]

Cheers guys,

There was something there very special so don't worry Ian.

As far as I'm aware it's 'izu no kami' 2 gen from the kinmichi mishina school

[IanB]

Ben, There was indeed a very special blade that I hope the owner decides to keep. Depite that it was good to see you and I hope you will be able to attend regularly. It is always a good evening and if asked we can always get the odd item out of stores for people to examine and handle. When you are part of the establishment you do get used to having endless treasures available and forget that others would love to see them close up.

Ian Bottomley

[vajo]

Ben your sword is in good polish. I think it's from antique-swords.eu

Enjoy it.

 

Best 

Chris 

[Ben9806]

I'm glad you were able to work it out and find some experienced collectors to study it with.  Just out of curiosity, did you figure out which Kinmichi made it?  In your first post you said that it was Izumi no kami Kinmichi, but Izumi no kami was usually given to Rai Kinmichi and there is definitely no "Rai" in the mei.  Plus, I'm fairly certain it doesn't say "Izumi", but it doesn't look like "Iga" either.  All I can definitively make out, is "kami fujiwara Kinmichi". 

 

I'm very new to collecting and just started to attempt to read mei a few weeks ago, so I'm just trying to make sure I'm correct in my comprehension of the mei.  I actually have an Izumi (no) Kami Rai Kinmichi (3rd generation) wakizashi, so I'm interested in the 5 main Mishina lines of smiths and the differences in their mei.  Any info would be great, thanks

 

 

I too really like this line, sadly I'm a noobie and can't really help you, but there are hundreds here who could. If you start a new thread on this you'll no doubt get loads of help

[Ben9806]

Ben, There was indeed a very special blade that I hope the owner decides to keep. Depite that it was good to see you and I hope you will be able to attend regularly. It is always a good evening and if asked we can always get the odd item out of stores for people to examine and handle. When you are part of the establishment you do get used to having endless treasures available and forget that others would love to see them close up.

Ian Bottomley

It was pretty amazing yeah, and met some good people. I'm hoping to to get there often, maybe not every month but yes I won't be a stranger. I've a lot of interest in the polishing side too, and looking forward to seeing his set up. Thanks again for everything

[Shamsy]

Ben your sword is in good polish. I think it's from antique-swords.eu

Enjoy it.

 

Best 

Chris 

Yes, an interesting site that one. Not one I'd recommend for Japanese swords or ethics.

[Ben9806]

I can't really slate it, he's quite a character but if you can get over that.

I guess if you find a blade from a maker you want then you've just gotta go for it whichever site it is.