Thoughts On Tanto

[Frank B]

Hello, I am new to the NMB and would love to hear any thoughts on this blade. It was purchased from a fellow member of NMB, and prior to that was polished by Bob Benson. The tanto was originally in a 19th century bowie mounting, but the previous owner removed it and sent it to Bob Benson for polishing. Mr. Benson thought the tanto was at least from the muromachi era. It was then sent the NBTHK and was appraised to Ikkansai Yoshihiro, a shinshinto smith. He made copies of Norishige blades, however this dating does not correlate to Mr. Bensons. I am curious on others thoughts. Here are Mr. Bensons comments. 

 

This tanto is very interesting in that it is in mounting that one sees on knives from the BOWIE KNIFE period.  So many blades were brought out of Japan after 1856 and used for many purposes other that being carried by Samurai. Prior to 1900 they were bought and used in America to cut sugar  cane. This piece found its way here and was converted into a knife of the period. A Bowie knife. The nakago had been cut down a bit and wood handle attached. The remaining old rust on the tang had a deep blue color suggesting that it was at least from the early Muromachi era. To eliminate the new file marks and cleaned surface the tang was re-patinated before the blade was polished. After polish it looked like it had Matsukawa hada associated with the Norishige or Ko uda school. It was submitted to shinsa where it was appraised as a NAKAYAMA IKKANSAI YOSHIHIRO, a shinshinto smith that made copies of Norishige swords. Nakayama Ikkansai Yoshihiro is a good smith. The blade should be submitted once again. Because of the wear from polishing the blade has to be an earlier period and the Bowie mounts could precede the period of Yoshihiro. Overall a historical piece and highly collectable. 

Bob

[Frank B]

photos 

[Frank B]

more photos 

[Peter Bleed]

Is there a picture of the "Bowie koshirae"? I'd love to see it.

Peter

[Stephen]

what is dated 1895?

[Frank B]

here you go

[TheGermanBastard]

Good qualiyt blade and Benson is probably right. His oppinion is amongst the best ones you can get in the western world. If I were you I'd submitt it to the upcoming NTHK NPO Shinsa ... if they give you a better attribution throw away the Hozon papers. Good luck!

[Frank B]

Thank you Luis, is it fair to say than that this sword is muromachi?

[TheGermanBastard]

Well, in my cheap oppinion I would go with Bob Benson. Bob has spent significant more time with the blade than the Shinsa panel ... judging by the images I do not see anything from preventing it to be a Koto piece. Shinshinto is pretty much off to me ... BUT my oppinion does not add any value to your blade and is worth just what it costs you: Nothing The NBTHK is the best thing when wanting to sell it again. Their judgement is in the hightes regard ... 2nd best is the NTHK right now - I won't argue which branch.

 

As you know the Nagako has been repatinatedl. This could be an aspect in judging the blade less old than it actually could be.

 

So if you just want to keep it and enjoy it for what it is (to you) then forget about any papers... it is a quality blade and you most probably got a good deal on it. The value is in the blade and the quality Kesho polish.

 

The Bowie mounts are niot my cup o tea but one can consider them just as part of the blades history.

 

If you ever plan on re-selling it try to get a NTHK paper in the US Shinsa and see if their attribution is more favorable. Otherwise a better investment might be a properly fit and definately clean Shirsaya.

[Frank B]

What is the process/cost of going through a new appraisal?

[TheGermanBastard]

In Japan you need an agent handling the sword. He will charge around 250 - 300 ... then there is the Shinsa fee NTHK 150 ... NBTHK 250 ... prices in USD ... dependable on Yen exchange rate

 

in the USA the NTHK Shinsa is more expensive UD 250 - 275 ... but you don't need an agent ... if you can't make it yourself there is a mailing service at around 100.00 ...

 

Everything plus postage

[TheGermanBastard]

For Shinsa submission you can use Bob Benson, Paul Martin or many more ...

[Frank B]

I see, thank you. 

[TheGermanBastard]

Goofle for example for Paul Martin .. he will list all the fees on his site. NBTHk shisna is only available in Japan.

[Frank B]

I am interested to hear others opinions. Thank you for all the help Luis, I will research mr. Martin. 

[J Reid]

I think the NBTHK is wrong. They got the blade after benson repatinated the nakago. That's probably why they think it's a shinshinto utsushi. Benson says that he removed new file marks from the nakago and repatinated it. However before doing so he said there was remanents of "blue" rust. He also says that he thought the blade was older based on the health of the blade. I would take the opinion of benson over the NBTHK based on these details.

[TheGermanBastard]

They got the blade after benson repatinated the nakago.

 

Yes, I also thought that this may have been the cause for the Shinshinto attribution.

 

If I remember correctly from the original description of the iten it said that the Nagako had been tempered with by the guy who made it fit the Bowie Koshirae. It is a pitty.

[Vermithrax16]

Interesting thread!

[Ken-Hawaii]

Bob is very careful about any attribution he provides - his reputation depends on it. I strongly suggest that you send it to shinsha through him, Bob, as he's personally interested in what NBTHK has to say about it now. You're lucky to have that blade for study.

 

Also, please set up your signature so that your first name is on all posts, per Brian's rules.

 

Ken

 

[TheGermanBastard]

I strongly suggest that you send it to shinsha through him, Bob, as he's personally interested in what NBTHK has to say about it now.

 

 

It has allready been submitted through Bob Benson on teh 1st occasion if I am not mistaken.

[Frank B]

I am not sure if it was through him.

[Stephen]

Bob's Shinsa page

 

http://www.bushidojapaneseswords.com/nbthk-shinsa-submission.html

[TheGermanBastard]

I am not sure if it was through him.

 

I am 99% sure it was by him ... to be sure ask the vendor he will know.

 

I do not think that these days it has a great influence on who submitts a blade for Shinsa and should not have any influence at all anyway.

[Frank B]

From rereading the original description. It does seem that mr. Benson submitted it.

[TheGermanBastard]

So you can take another shot at the lottery if you want to sell it ... if wnating to keep it I would skip that.

[Frank B]

What is the payout of the lottery really worth? So far the vast consensus has.been muromachi era. I do.not see.a reason to pay 1000 for something I know and.that others can see.

[TheGermanBastard]

This is a question that can not be answered in any way. First of all your ticket will be about 500 USD not 1000. Then what it is worth you will only know after you get the results. It is like buying a real lottery ticket. What the ticket is worth you will only know after it has been opened. You may end up with a attribution to a very good smith ... or a lesser one ... or with an attribution to a school only ... or in the maybe worst case you get exactly teh same result liek you allready have.

 

Some people buy swords, some buy papers, some buy papered swords.

 

I can see a nice blade and most people will probably the same.

[Frank B]

What kind of a price jump would it be if it was attributed to a good muromachi smith?

[TheGermanBastard]

Hello Mark, this question can not be answered sicne good is a wide term as was Muromachi peridode There would be a price increase but to give you a number you will have to give a name -  see the problem?

[Frank B]

Mr. Benson mentioned a norishige/ kouda school reference.