Real of fake?

[Lilleskit]

Hello all!

 

First I'd like to warn that I'm new and hope that I'm not posting in the wrong place and that I wish I had found this board years ago (before a few embarrassing purchases).

 

I recently bought a fuchi on ebay but I'm having trouble tracking down information on the the item, bid time ran out before I could come to any solid conclusion. Historically it seem to comply with the limitations of a lower ranking soldier (I think) but that doesn't necessarily mean anything. On the one side there is a Sanada crest and on the other is a family crest I've been unable to track down. I though it might help me determine the age and possible authenticity if any affiliation between Sanada and the other family was at all possible.

 

The crest type when translated on the "BABLE FISH" website is "Leaf of Abe rudder" and can be seen second down on the left at: http://www.otomiya.com/kamon/plant/kaji.htm

 

Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated.

 

_______

Ken B.

[Brian]

Ken,

 

Please sign posts with a name please (and since we have a Ken, maybe an initial too? :D )

Before anyone else asks, how about a pic of the fuchi? It is much easier taking a stab at it with the item in view. During later times, the mon represented don't always lead immediately to a family attribution. Sometimes they were used for the vaguest of reasons, and since they were frequently parted out from the swords, what you can assertain from the mon is maybe very limited. Also, the owner could have been a simple merchant. There is nothing to say that there is a link to any class of owner, especially during the later Edo period when many of these were made. By 1751, books of mon designs were published that made it possible for anyone to select a mon for their own use.

Let's see the image and hopefully someone has some input.

 

Regards,

Brian

 

Ps- I have this as the white oak (Kashiwa) mon, and it is listed as Abe and Daimyo Okabe in Musashi province in my book.

[Nobody]

Kaji (梶) is paper mulberry, not oak or rudder.

[Lilleskit]

Hello again.

 

Thanks Brian for that information. It's true that this may have come from a sword whose owner or family would not have made even the slightest blip on histories radar for all the reasons you've listed. Here are a few pics. (sorry for the poor quality)

 

Thanks!!!

Ken B.

 

P.S. Feel free to mock me if this turns out to be a fake. :D

[Brian]

Moriyama san,

 

Do you think that it is the webpage that has it described incorrectly, or the book?

Hawley's Mon book definitely has that listed as kashiwa, but not sure if he had it incorrect.

This page: http://www.geocities.com/kazenaga23/crests.htm has the kashiwa with 3 leaves, but if you follow the Abe link, on page 3 it has this mon along with Matsuura

 

Brian

[Nobody]

Brian,

 

Mon of Kaji (梶) and Kashiwa (æŸ) may look similar, but they are different mon groups as you can see on the following pages. Kaji is paper mulberry, and Kashiwa is white oak.

Kaji: http://www.otomiya.com/kamon/plant/kaji.htm

Kashiwa: http://www.otomiya.com/kamon/plant/kashiwa.htm

 

The crest of Abe on page 3 of the link you refer is not Kashiwa but Kaji. So, I think that the webpage is incorrect. I do not know about the Hawley's Mon book as I have not seen it yet.

[Lilleskit]

Hey Brian!

 

I just looked at the mon you found used by the Matsuura clan and am wondering if it can be the same. Can a mon with a identical image be seen as completely different by placing it in a circle and can even the thickness of the circle come into play as well?

 

I would love to think that this is the mon from the Matsuura clan and that I can let my brain rest a bit but...

[IanB]

Brian,

The kamon of two rows of three coins(?) is that used by the Sanada family whilst that engraved on the reverse looks like a mulberry leaf. As far as I know the Sanada did not use this at all. One variation of the latter, without the circular frame, was used by the Matsura family who were daimyo of Hirado but the best match I can find, in Seishi Kamon no Jiten, is for the Ono family. Why or how the two families Should be linked on your kashira I do not know but someone else may.

 

Ian Bottomley

[Lilleskit]

Ian,

 

Thanks for that. I'll check into that family.

 

Yes, your right. The 6 coin mon is the one used by the Sanada clan. The leaf mon is the one that's killing me.

 

I believe that is was dictated that lower ranking soldiers were required to have only simple furnishings on a katana. The kashira was expected to be plain or possibly a simple grain pattern if I recall. The fuchi was also relatively plain with only the kamon of the clan they were fighting under. It was howerver accepted the on the reverse side that soldiers own family crest could also be displayed. That could result in two different crests with no other connection other than that they were all playing for the same team. Please correct me if I'm wrong.