Help with translation, please....

[Stephen]

The chin blade should not have come into the thread, i dont think Jocks new blade is a Chin...if so so sorry but the cut of the mei says NIPPON to me!!!

[Brian]

Well..you got me here a bit. On one hand, there are some points that indicate a PC. I would love confirmation that the mei does in fact read PC if so.

However I see the mei as too well cut to be that, and the nakago looks too good to me. Also (and this is a strong point brought up by a member in a pm) there is the remains of the white painted kanji on the nakago that usually point towards a wartime (arsenal?) blade.

The way the kissaki flares out is also a good shape for a wartime blade, and the lines look good. The hamon looks like an oil quenched blade.

So far we have both sides, one claiming PC, the other a wartime blade. Until this is proven beyond doubt, I don't think we are discussing a Chinese fake yet. If that becomes the case, then I will lock or remove the thread. But I would like to hear more arguments if possible. Actually...theories and facts, let's keep the arguments off this one please.

Bear in mind there are still many undocumented smiths out there, and just because we don't know of this smith, doesn't mean he didn't exist. However I am still open to the possibility that this is a good fake too. However it seems extreme to go to the trouble of taking a PC sword, faking the white paint and other things, and then trying to pass it as a wartime blade that doesn't go for all that much more than a PC. Just want to get more sides of the story.

Tread lightly on this one though...

 

Brian

[undermilkwood]

It doesn't seem altogether clear does it? Could it perhaps be Masa? 政

Just a long shot guys I'll leave it to the experts

 

Joe

[undermilkwood]

Sorry I read the first page only thinking in my tiredness that there was only one page

So I didn't see the decent pictures of the mei or any subsequent posts. Please forget about the above comment.

 

My Bad

 

Joe

[Stephen]

this in from Afu sama

 

Stephen,

If I were reading that as a Japanese sword smith's name, i would read it as NAMISHIGE. However, nami does have other pronuciations, such as HA. But if someone has a Paul Chin (Chen?) sword, and this is how he signs them, then I would read it Paul Chin, and the actual pronunciation in Chinese would not be something we would know how to say, even if we could see it spelled, because it is a tonal language.

I do not see a NAMISHIGE in any of my reference material.

So, not much help, am I?

Semper Fi!

Harry

 

guess im at the end of the line on this.

[Bugyotsuji]

In my Japanese university classes I have many Chinese students. Most of them are aware of how to write their names in Chinese-looking Chinese characters and in Japanese-looking Chinese characters.

 

I have studied Chinese on and off for years.

 

Since we cannot find an example of a smith beginning with Nami or Ha, I started working on the possibility that it was a Chinese name.

 

As I said in the spoiler, the Kanji are lovingly cut. You would only feel so much love if you were a Japanese, or if you were writing your own name, if you used a Japanese artisan to cut it for you, or you were using a laser from a Japanese Kanji data base. I could be wrong, but the 100 dollar bet stands, and I will pay if anyone can come up with a convincing argument! (I have been wrong before!!! :lol: )

 

Jock provided a clearer couple of pics. Thank you. The second Kanji is in a Chinese shortened form, but the first one is clearly the same character that we have all been debating.

[John A Stuart]

Just to add possible readings to those characters. ON; Hajiyuu, Hachiyou KUN; Namie, Namiomo, Namikasa

[Nobody]

The mei looks refined. But I remember another mei that looked smart in a recent thread. The style of the characters was very good but the name itself was strange. The blade seemed to be an evolved fake. Unfortunately the thread was removed maybe because of some political messages in some posts. I wonder if I could see the mei again and compare them.

[Bugyotsuji]

Just spent some time looking for examples of 'Paul Chen signature' but when I came across a site suggesting that there are at least two Paul Chens active in blade making, I suddenly decided to pull out of this discussion. It must be valuable for Jock to find out the truth about his sword, though, one way or the other! Good luck, Jock!

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&rls= ... tnG=Search

[Bugyotsuji]

....and this is only the natago...same counts for temperline etc etc...

 

This is what caused me to doubt your statement - giving the benefit of a doubt....has Paul Chen ever produced such quality?

 

Regards,

 

Jock

 

See this link:

http://forums.swordforum.com/showthread.php?t=87851

[Stephen]

Bugs not sure what you were pointing out as it just showed a Hanwei Chen, much like Jocks other blade. Low quality nakago and not related to his new one.

 

Koichi sama i think this is what you asked for.

[Bugyotsuji]

Bugs not sure what you were pointing out as it just showed a Hanwei Chen, much like Jocks other blade. Low quality nakago and not related to his new one.

 

Koichi sama i think this is what you asked for.

 

Stephen, apologies. I was starting to get the two mixed up in my brain. I need to step back and let go completely!

[dkirkpatrick]

Hey gang,

 

Probably not my place to jump into the discussion given the caliber of authors we have on this thread but just thought I'd throw in my two cents anyway. This nakago patina, yasurime, tagane mannerisms, and the painted number remnants that Brian mentioned seem to me to scream showa-to. I also don't understand why this simply doesn't read TSUGUSHIGE. There are a few smiths in Hawley's by this name, admittedly no one of note but it seems that the wartime signers of mei had a tendency to throw any two characters together just to give it a signature. I don't have any examples but seem to recall some odd combinations on swords I have had in the past, didn't ponder them much because I knew they didn't really mean anything.

I have also owned showa-to that have had some very peculiar geometry like this one so it's hard to make any judgments base on that. In my opinion the question is whether it is showa-to or gendai-to, my impression is that it is "authentic" but strong leaning to showa-to oil quenched just from the generic mistiness of the habuchi. When it comes to these or PC I find them equally unimportant so I apologize if I have contributed to dragging out this thread but just wanted to get a better understanding of what I am seeing or not seeing in this sword. Thanks to all.

Doug

[Nobody]

Koichi sama i think this is what you asked for

Thanks Stephen,

 

I see that the Namishige mei (maybe) in question is more plausible than the previous example.

[Bugyotsuji]

Hey gang,

 

Probably not my place to jump into the discussion given the caliber of authors we have on this thread but just thought I'd throw in my two cents anyway. This nakago patina, yasurime, tagane mannerisms, and the painted number remnants that Brian mentioned seem to me to scream showa-to. I also don't understand why this simply doesn't read TSUGUSHIGE. There are a few smiths in Hawley's by this name, admittedly no one of note but it seems that the wartime signers of mei had a tendency to throw any two characters together just to give it a signature. I don't have any examples but seem to recall some odd combinations on swords I have had in the past, didn't ponder them much because I knew they didn't really mean anything.

I have also owned showa-to that have had some very peculiar geometry like this one so it's hard to make any judgments base on that. In my opinion the question is whether it is showa-to or gendai-to, my impression is that it is "authentic" but strong leaning to showa-to oil quenched just from the generic mistiness of the habuchi. When it comes to these or PC I find them equally unimportant so I apologize if I have contributed to dragging out this thread but just wanted to get a better understanding of what I am seeing or not seeing in this sword. Thanks to all.

Doug

 

So Doug, you think this is a Showa-to and not a Gendai-to as advertised? And you think the name doesn't really matter so much? (As an afterthought, Is there any possiblility that someone might have signed it later on then, for whatever purpose?)

[dkirkpatrick]

Piers, I guess what I am saying is that it seems like I have seen quite a bit of discussion in the past regarding how much hand work went into these wartime blades and I wont pretend to understand their nuances. It seems like it runs the gambit from bar stock with a hadori hamon through Mantetsu, Nagamitsu, Yasukuni stuff. This just looks like something very much in the middle to me, something that in gunto mounts would be good for 600-750 on eBay. I have had swords with nakagos that were incredibly poor in finish but I swear I could see glimmers of hada and hataraki in them. My opinion is that at best it is an also-ran gendai smith whose work is difficult to judge not having it in hand and at worst an oil temper factory work with a mei added at the time of manufacture for a finishing touch. I jumped in simply because it seemed like so many were seeing something sinister vis-a-vis fakery in this piece and nothing struck me in that way whatsoever so I was wondering what I was missing. IMHO:Boring? Yes Fake? I don't think so.

By the way, I certainly hope I haven't offended anyone lumping gendaito together like that, I am sure there are many fine works of art among them, they are simply not my cup of tea and their subtle appreciation is perhaps beyond my level of expertise.

 

Doug

[Guido]

In fact I'd lay 100 USD on it...

I'm here to collect ....

 

Sorry, mate, but you took the wrong turn along the way. I perfectly understand where you're coming from (I, too, studied some Chinese [which is the main reason my employer, in his infinite wisdom, will transfer me to Beijing from August on]), and know how tricky it can be, especially when it comes to simplified Chinese and traditional Chinese, the latter being used by Paul Chen who hails from Taiwan. However, he writes his name 陳æœæ³¢, or Chen Chaopo, which only has the last character in common with æ³¢é‡, which I read Namishige.

 

IMO we're looking at a low class ShÅwatÅ, nothing more, nothing less. Your mileage may vary, however.

[Brian]

Thanks Guido, for me that concludes it satisfactorily. Not that any other opinions weren't valid, but I think you summed it up nicely and it would be the concensus as far as I am concerned.

Let's consider this one solved unless something changes dramatically?

 

Hmm..the move to China is going to be a big loss to the Nihonto community and trade there. How fast can you unlearn Chinese? :D

Will you be able to continue with your sword work there, and are you able to travel back to Japan regularly? Maybe you will be the one to finally find all those stored Japanese swords in China that I have heard about..

 

Brian

[sencho]

Guido...

 

There are 2 Paul Chen's producing repro and cutting swords

 

one has Hanwei in Dalian, China (Chen Chao Po - Paul Chen) Originally from Taiwan

 

one has Cheness Cutleries, (Paul Y. Chen) based in California with factory in China.

 

cheers

[Stephen]

What do you say Brian we put this to bed, lots of space and am a bit to blame in trying to help Jock, but agree it has run its corse.

[Guido]

Well, since this thread isn't closed yet ...

Hmm..the move to China is going to be a big loss to the Nihonto community and trade there.

The emphasis is indeed on "trade" - the NihontÅ community as such will probably don't notice my absence, with the possible exception of the TÅkyÅ NMB group that now has to look for another organizer of the infamous gatherings.

How fast can you unlearn Chinese?

My Mandarin / Putonghua is quite rusty by now' date=' to put it mildly, but my transfer is a done deal, no way out of it. :|

Will you be able to continue with your sword work there, and are you able to travel back to Japan regularly?

Besides the legion of forgers, there's no NihontÅ community to speak of in Beijing. However, it's only a 3 hours flight to TÅkyÅ, and my daughter will move in with her grandparents to finish her education in Japan, so my wife and I will be in Japan quite often. The first trip back to attend the Dai TÅken Ichi and NBTHK convention in late October / early November is actually already booked. :D

Maybe you will be the one to finally find all those stored Japanese swords in China that I have heard about ...

I used to live in Beijing from 1996 to 2000, and had some very good contacts to antique dealers a.s.o. The stories about the stored Japanese swords in China are very entertaining, but just stories nonetheless; don't hold your breath yet ...

[Guest reinhard]

I've always wondered what happened to the estimated 300'000 swords exported from Japan to Ming-China as part of the licensed trade between 1404 and 1554. A genuine Tachi by a NOBUKUNI-smith with the Ming date Ch'eng-hua second year, ninth lunar month (1466) exists. Maybe not all of the other 299'999 swords were turned into kitchen-knives by now. Keep us updated, if you please

 

reinhard