Help with translation, please....

[Jock]

Hi folks,

 

May I ask for your valuable help? Who can tell me anything concerning the signature/smith/history below?

 

Thank you very much for your kind help.

 

Regards,

 

Jock

[Brian]

Jock,

 

Try a full photo of the mei instead of this angled one. Makes it harder to see clearly.

Also..why don't you have a go at it and at least have a try. http://www.nihontokanjipages.com/kanji_for_mei.html

Shouldn't be too difficult.

 

Brian

[Jock]

Brian,

 

I think that there is a lot of room for improvement on my side.....the following is what I came up with:

 

Naga Shige, Nobu

 

æ°¸ Naga

é‡ Shige, Nobu

 

appreciate any constructive critisim...

 

Thanks, folks.

 

Regards,

 

Jock

[Stephen]

your half way there...you have the shige right, try looking in the t's in Johns book.

 

hint you wont find it on RTs page

[Jock]

Hi Stephen,

 

Thanks for your hint!

 

How about : shige tsugu ? and were does the nobu fit in??

 

If this isn't correct - show mercy and let me know the right one.

 

Regards,

 

Jock

[Stephen]

lol you worked hard enough...turn them around Tsugushige...no nobu...the kanji can be read Shige or Nobu.

 

i found three in Hawley..one koto one shinto one shinshinto, do you own the blade?. if so lets see some pix...nice stout nakago is it a long blade? would like to see some more of it.

[Nobody]

Hi,

 

I am a little confused, because the mei looks Namishige (æ³¢é‡) to me. But I cannot find any Namishige so far. :?

[Brian]

Yep..I was hoping for some pics that aren't at such an angle. I think a few of those strokes might look a bit different if face-on.

X Shige it is, not convinced on that first kanji yet though.

Jock..well done on trying, and getting that second kanji. Practice makes perfect. As Stephen said, when you get 2 readings, it is just 2 different pronounciations. Experience will tell you which sounds right.

 

Brian

[Stephen]

FMPOV it looked like Tsugu...a close up dead on might change my mind.

[Nobody]

FYI; A magnified image of the mei is attached.

[Brian]

Jock,

 

If you are just posting every mei that you are interested in buying, then at least tell us, or put it in the eBay section with an explanation.

http://cgi.ebay.com/Japanese-Sword-Sign ... 0215779577

 

Brian

[Mark]

Since the description says the maker is Namishige can we assume Jock is the seller?

[Brian]

I am not convinced of that, but possibly? I'll leave him to answer that. He was maybe checking the translation, or looking for more info on the maker?

Too many of us browsing eBay for fun to let items slip past unnoticed. We have seen that happen many, many times here.

 

Brian

[Jock]

Hi Folks,

 

My apology for having stirred up your anger......my limited understanding of fellow humans thinking might keep me from understanding "why?"..... Nevertheless my apology for whatever you feel I did wrong.

 

To clarify things: I bought this sword - didn't get it with the bitting, but sent the seller an offer and he accepted it - as the offer wasn't accepted at the time when I researched the mei I deceided to keep it for myself that it was on ebay - just wasn't sure about the whole signature thing.

 

For pics please visit: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... :IT&ih=012

 

I will post more detailed pics and details when I receive it!

 

By the way: I really appreciate all the help and knowledge that I have gained on this website over the last year - no offence meant!

 

Regards,

 

Jock

 

PS: Thank you Stephen for leading me further down the path as in how to investigate signatures!

[Stephen]

took time to break out the Nelson J-E character dictionary.

 

i see what Moriyama sees but cant get my head around namishige, hope this comes to light someday as who this is.

[Brian]

Jock,

 

No harm done, but I think that sometimes it isn't clear if the question is from a potential buyer, a seller or someone that owns the item.

Too many times someone will register here, ask for a translation and then use it in a listing and we never hear from them again. Hence the reason why I wrote some guidelines above the translation section.

I don't mind people asking, as long as the helpful members don't mind answering. But sometimes it might just prevent confusion by saying "this is a sword I am considering purchasing" or "this is one I own" etc.

You don't have to post a link, as I know some don't want to alert everyone to their "bargain" but knowing it is up for sale helps us when we ask for better pics or info. Then we know you don't have it in hand, and getting extra pics won't be fast. It also allays any fears that the translation is going to be used for a listing.

Just streamlines everything. I hope people will also start having a go at the kanji themselves as you did now, as this encourages learning and not just taking the easy way out.

 

Brian

 

PS - When you get it, post a closer and better pic of the mei so we can work out the confusing kanji.

[sencho]

次 TSUGU

é‡ SHIGE

 

æ³¢ NAMI

é‡ SHIGE

 

 

On the mei there is not have enough strokes to the left side of the character for Tsugu.... I go with Nami..... cannot find a smith by this name though either.... :?

[Stephen]

yes Nigle it must be Nami...but who is he, is what i cant get my head around...cant find the smith anywhere and its not a bad looking gunto, stout blade it is. So if we cant find a Nami it must be another way of writing of who???

[Guest reinhard]

Moriyama-San gave you, in his unique and admirably polite way, a hint towards right direction. I will give you another one. Does this look like Japanese craftsmanship? And why not?

 

reinhard

[Stephen]

did a search on ebay for nami...seems alot of paul chen blades use Nami...the fittings on Jocks looked newly added...didnt know it was the same time the sword was made. If this is a iaido blade they got the patina down well. like Brian said lets see more of it when it arrives.

[sencho]

Moriyama-San gave you, in his unique and admirably polite way, a hint towards right direction. I will give you another one. Does this look like Japanese craftsmanship? And why not?

 

reinhard

 

No.... From your pictures,Reinhard, I would (as a novice) suggest that the Yokote, Mistugashira, Ko-shingoi, etc look pretty shabby. The shape of the Fukura as a whole does not seems to work at all, but this would not necessarily lead me to immediately believe it was not Japanese. The shingoi looks a bit dodgy too.... not as crisp and perfect as it should... almost looks like there is a bow in it farther down.... the shine looks very shallow like well polished stainless.... however I would not know that these things are not just the photograph, or a bad polish.

 

All of the above would make me suspicious and wary... still not knowledgeable enough to tell if it is a good fake/iato/etc or a badly treated/polished/photographed nihonto.

 

The nakano would probably suggest to me that it was showato or gunto... I have never seen a mei on a non-Japanese sword that uses such well done kanji.....

 

Reinhard... enlighten us..... with a spoiler if necessary!

 

Cheers!

[Guest reinhard]

Nihon-To and Japanese craftsmanship

What makes a sword a Nihon-To (to which this forum is dedicated)?

 

For some people it might be sufficient to see a blade that looks Japanese from a distance, eventually signed on the tang with exotic unknown characters. Unfortunately this is also true for lookalike wall-ornaments made in factories all over the world, for mass-produced Gun-To (which are NOT accepted by the Agency for Cultural Affairs as genuine Nihon-To!), for poorly (hand-)forged swords made to deceive clueless collectors and for blades made by self-taught smiths outside of Japan. All these swords are NOT to be called Nihon-To by definition.

The Japanese Agency for Cultural Affairs does only accept swords of a minimal quality level, with historical, or at least artistic, value, made in Japan, as genuine Nihon-To. This is to some extent the heritage of post-war laws, installed to prevent the destruction of precious swords together with worthless Gun-To. Therefore the restrictions for swordmaking in Japan are very severe nowadays in order to keep up high quality level. It starts with the distribution of Tamahagane to licensed Kaji only and ends with the compulsory registration of all swords on Japanese ground, which claim to be genuine Nihon-To. To keep standards high all crafts associated with making and preserving Nihon-To (polisher, saya-maker) are forced and encouraged to work on a high level.

 

The shinogi-line of the sword in question is totally out of proportion (particularly in the mono-uchi area). This could be the fault of the smith or the polisher. Either way it is far from minimal Japanese standards. This goes for the surface polish as well. Someone might vote for an early stage of polish, but that's not true. It was done with cheap, synthetic stones/tools by an amateur instead of proper toishi applied by a skilled craftsman. It is not even clear if the blade has real Hada and Hamon. These would be the basic criteria to define it as Nihon-To. This is not what Japanese craftsmanship looks like, not even by lowest standards still accepted. The final clue is the mei: Even if the sword was spoiled by an amateur later: Together with a (new) mei by a smith never registered anywhere, it is quite obvious what it is NOT. A genuine Nihon-To.

 

reinhard

[Jock]

Reinhard,

 

Enlighten me, please - share your knowledge...

As far as I can read in your lines (2nd half) you claim that a badly polished sword can't be classified as a nihonto.....my limited knowledge (obtained by visiting this website and humbly studying / listening to people who's knowlegde has been obtain in years of studying....) told me that an old sword out of polish as well as a sword wrongly polished by an amateur is still a nihonto as long as it was produced in a certain way - and can be restored if the rust/damaging polish/destruction hasn't been to radical.

 

I understood that a destroyed sword, based on the way how it was produced is still a nihonto - but of no value...and a badly polished sword can change into a valuable one in the hands of an artistic polisher.

 

When I see statements made by Stephen, Brian, Darcy etc etc then I prefer to listen and to learn and maybe in a number of years might have knowledge and experience enough to make "confident statements" - ...... ) no offence meant!

 

Humbly ever learning...my 2 pence

 

Jock

[Darcy]

Reinhard I personally listen to carefully because I can learn things from him.

 

In this case Jock what he is saying is that this is not so much a case of polish but is a case of how the sword was made. The proportions are just out of whack and the steel doesn't look like it is traditional steel.

 

What it looks like is something in "katana style", rather than something that is nihonto. It's not a case of polish, though the polish is bad. Consider a chinese rolex, from 10 feet away it looks like a rolex, and it has a rolex name on it, but in the hand, everything is kind of wrong. It still tells time but it's not a rolex, it's "rolex style."

[Brian]

To avoid futher confusion, I think what people are saying here is that this is a copy.

Paul Chen or otherwise.

However I don't see nearly enough to confidently make that assumption (or deny it)

I think all we can do is wait for it to arrive, and then you post better pics Jock. If it is a copy, then you will have a good case against the seller. However I would rather see more pics before deciding that. Usually copies are much more obvious and we don't have to go into the look of the steel etc to identify them. But there are production grade copies that are getting better all the time, made for sport usually such as Chen etc. All we can do now is wait and see what arrives.

 

Brian

[Guest reinhard]

"As far as I can read in your lines (2nd half) you claim that a badly polished sword can't be classified as a nihonto"

Yes it can, but it has to be restored, before coming to a final judgement.

 

"...told me that an old sword out of polish as well as a sword wrongly polished by an amateur is still a nihonto as long as it was produced in a certain way"

 

Not quite true. This goes for swords made in Japan. The sword in question is definitely not old and is not "out of polish". There are many NihonTo spoiled by amateurs, but they are not defined by being "produced in a certain way" alone, for there are (and were) smiths outside of Japan capable to create something like Hada and Hamon. That's not enough to suit the criteria for being a NihonTo.

 

"I understood that a destroyed sword, based on the way how it was produced is still a nihonto - but of no value...and a badly polished sword can change into a valuable one in the hands of an artistic polisher."

 

True for genuine NihonTo, but the sword in question was not destroyed. It was of poor quality from the very beginning and even "artistic polishers" can't perform miracles. The mei is the key: "Namishige" (or whatever the translation of these Kanji might be) is not mentionned anywhere in the history of NihonTo.

 

"When I see statements made by Stephen, Brian, Darcy etc etc then I prefer to listen and to learn and maybe in a number of years might have knowledge and experience enough to make "confident statements"

 

A good start, but browsing the net alone won't bring you to "confident statements".

 

reinhard (bad enlightener and obviously not much better in sharing his knowledge)

[Jock]

Hi Folks,

 

I'm back with some more pics of the same blade.....when I received it I thought first that it is a different blade.....the mune looked nothing like on the pics (see pic below) and a few other details...

 

Without a doubt somebody did a bad polishing job on it - the kissaki and yokote aren't exactly spot-on...

 

Please let me know your most appreciated opinion!

 

Thank you very much!

 

Jock

[Jock]

next

[Jock]

next....my internet explorer freezes and shuts down after every pic I upload....anybody else with the same problem?

[Jock]

next.....the boshi is buddha stile - couldn't get it on a pic based on the polish...