Gendaido vs Shinsakuto

[Leroy]

I have been wondering for a while: Why do some dealers/collectors refer to post 1945 nihonto as Gendaito while others call newly made swords Shinsakuto I know Gendaito is "newly made" but I always thought Gendaito were nihonto made after shinshinto until the end off WW11. Is there a reason for this? Is it mostly personal preference? I get confused sometimes when wondering the websites and a sword is listed as gendaito, but I see it was made in 2000's.

 

Just wondering! Thanks all

 

-Leroy

[Rich S]

As i understand it, you are basically correct. Gendaito are for swords

from end of Shinshinto to end of WW II (1945). Shinsakuto are swords

made since 1954 (I think that is when sword making resumed in Japan)

to date. Just sloppy terminology I guess.

 

Rich S

[Markus]

Another thing I heard some time ago about this subject is,

only after a contemporary smith´s passing, his works are called

"gendaito". If he is still alive, they are called "shinsakuto".

[Leroy]

"Gendaito" after the smith joined the sword forging gods in the sky? Hmm. That's interesting.

[Ed]

That is a good question. The definitions are quite similar.

 

GENDAI: nowadays (a-no), modern times, present-day.

SHINSAKU: new work, new production. It can also mean prosperity.

 

Broken down even further:

GEN: original (prefix)

DAI: title, subject, theme, topic

TO: sword

 

SHIN: new, genuineness.

SAKU: work or made (we know this to translate into "made this").

TO: sword

 

I too, as Rich Stein stated above, had always heard that the term Gendaito was used from the end of Shinshinto (1867) until post war production re-emerged in the early 1950's.

 

A couple of years ago I saw in Nagayama's book where the charts show "Gendaito" from 1867 thru Heisei 1989-.

The books definition states, SHINSAKUTO: Contemporary swords made by smith's who are still living.

 

I suppose Shinsakuto are technically Gendaito, but not vise versa. Shinsakuto are apparently designated as Gendaito when the smith dies.

 

Markus was right on track.

 

Ed M.

[Brian]

Excellent info. Thanks Ed. That makes sense to me too.

 

Brian

[Nobody]

This is only my understanding.

 

The word Gendaito means modern sword. And at the same time they are defined as the nihonto made after 1876 (or 1868 by other opinion) in this field. Any way the category is based on the period in that the sword made.

 

On the contrary, the word Shinsakuto has general meaning of newly made sword. So, every sword was Shinsakuto when it was made, even though it is Koto. But of course they did not use the same terminology at their era, I think.

 

Then, how many years a new sword can be called Shinsakuto? I really do not know, 1 year, 2 year, or more...?

But I thnk that say 20 years old sword is not called Shinsakuto, even if the smith is still alive. And I also think that even if the sword is young enough say 1 year old, it is not called Shinsakuto when it is secondhand.

[Leroy]

Thanks everyone for the info. It really helps to clear things up.

[Ed]

"Then, how many years a new sword can be called Shinsakuto? I really do not know, 1 year, 2 year, or more...? "

 

Moriyama san, good question. I agree that it doesn't seem that it would be called shinsakuto after 20 years??? Perhaps next time you visit the NBTHK you could ask this question and get clarification.

It would be good knowledge to have.

 

"And I also think that even if the sword is young enough say 1 year old, it is not called Shinsakuto when it is secondhand."

 

I would tend to disagree with this statement. If the sword was made last year and purchased by myself, then sold to you this year, I would still think it a shinsakuto. Just my worthless opinion.

 

EdM

[Guido]

I don't want to be controversial, but since there is no legal definition (also not by the NBTHK), it's a matter of the Japanese language, and how the different terms are perceived by native speakers or others with a good command of the Japanese language and way of thinking.

 

FWIW, I'm 100% with "Nobody" in his use of the definition Shinsakutô. But to each his own, and certainly one would hear different opinions among Japanese collectors as well. I know people who think we're still in the Shinshintô period, since all swords made are modeled after older swords.

 

In art, and especially Japanese art, some things can't be properly labeled and put in the appropriate drawer. One's Gendaitô is the other's Shinsakutô or Shinshintô. But art is art, no matter if it was made one thousand or only one year ago. And I guess that's why we are here, certain definitions are just an academic exercise. Some twenty or so years ago there was a discussion in the Token Bijutsu about Mekugi placement, heatily faught among non-Japanese collectors. The NBTHK, asked to be the referee, finally wrote that "we don't put much emphasis on this topic in evaluating swords as works of art" - this pretty much sums it up.

 

Again, I'm not being snobbish, or saying that the Japanese are always right, but we shouldn't be side-tracked by discussions that ultimately don't help us to understand why one sword is just a weapon, and another a Jûyô Tôken.

 

End of today's sermon.

[Ed]

Guido,

I appreciate your input.

If there is no legal definition, then it is just a matter of opinion.

 

And we all know what they say about opinions!

[Keith Larman]

Just to add to the chorus...

 

In talking with various folk in the world of swordsmithing *today* (i.e., modern swordsmiths, modern craftsmen, etc.) gendaito is pretty much the accepted term for anything traditionally made of traditional materials post shinshinto. The usage of shinsakuto is somewhat different and more refers to the "recency" of manufacture. So anything made (traditionally) post shinshinto is gendaito including made this very morning. But that one made this very morning would certainly also be a shinsakuto -- i.e., newly made sword. So a shinsakuto of the gendaito period of sword making. A newly made sword of the modern sword period.

 

Of course I've heard a few prominent swordsmiths campaign for terms like shin-gendaito to refer to swords being made today that have made a rather large leap upwards in quality over 30 years ago (according to those people -- no need to debate that issue in this thread). I kinda doubt that's going to happen in any sort of general use, but it does point out that the term "gendai" has come to refer to a period of manufacture like koto or shinto or shinshinto. We're in that period now. So anything made today or in the last 100 years or so is a gendaito.

 

I don't have much trouble with the terms. To me using "gendaito" is a bit of an interesting term. We use "Gendai-To" when we don't say "koto-to" or "shinto-to". Kinda interesting how language evolves. But it is really like saying "koto blade" or "shinto blade", etc. In other words referring to period of manufacture. Shinsakuto just means a newly made blade and is used really a different sort of word from the period descriptors and as has been pointed out would be correct in the Koto period if you happened to be there when it was made. So if I was standing there with Rai Kunitoshi accepting my new tanto it would be a shinsakuto when he handed it to me. (Ah, to dream...)

 

It all makes sense to me... But then again I also get people arguing with me all the time about mekugi placement too... And I must say I agree with the NBTHK that sometimes some things take on waaaay too much importance in the larger scheme of things.

[Keith Larman]

Ah, I try to say something stupid as a weak attempt at humor then forget to put in the smiley face to indicate as such. Insert one up above near the silly section about "shinto-to". I left out the smiley face to indicate a bad attempt at humor.

 

Bottom line for me is that it is kinda interesting that we call these things "gendaito" but don't similarly use the single term to call koto blades "koto" in the same way. I'll often hear people describe their blade as a "gendaito" but then say "this is a shinto wakizashi". In other words you generally won't hear them say "this is a 'shinto'". We'll kinda skirt around with the usage but gendaito has a more common usage as a descriptor. Maybe because we're in it... Anyway, I just find it kinda interesting how the langauge ends up being used. And that is probably in part why people tend to debate this stuff more than they need to.

[Guido]

Keith,

 

it's Gendai-tô, Shinshin-tô, Shin-tô, Ko-tô - "Tô" in each case meaning "sword". In Japan you may hear "this is a Nambokuchô-jidai Tachi", or a "Muromachi-jidai Tantô", and if possible even more precisely "Shôhei" or "Ôei" if it can be nailed down to a certain Nengô. You also hear "this is a Shintô", but never "this is a Shintô-tô".

 

Seems like yet another case where the Japanese terms are used differently amon non-Japanese colletors.

[Keith Larman]

Yup... Feeble attempt at humor. And when you forget to put in the smileys or knowing winks oddly enough my less than well developed attempt at irony falls way short...

[Keith Larman]

FWIW I was trying to convey a feeling that seems to come with using the term gendaito vs. koto (or shinto, shinshinto, whatever). For some reason gendaito seems to carry a lot of extra baggage in common use. And as such it tends to be used differently even though technically the meaning is no different from the other terms in meaning.

 

To some extent I think there is a sort of dismisal by many of the merits of gendai blades. Maybe due to the changes around Meiji and the profound effects on the sword world, maybe due to them being "too new", maybe due to them simply not being relevant in the same way any longer, but people tend to use the term gendaito a bit differently.

 

Of course we're talking about common usage vs. defined meaning. And that's what I was (rather poorly) joking about. Some people will tend to dismiss gendaito with a wave of the hand (in my experience). "Oh, that's just a gendaito..." with the underlying implication intended that it isn't quite the same as blades from other periods.

 

I also think lately there has been an increasing appreciation of some of the gendai smiths however (evidenced by prices some higher profile pieces have gone for recently) so maybe that is changing.

[Guido]

I guess this time it was me who forgot the smileys ; but anyhow, I thought you were going at how the sword period definitions are used incorrectly. Something like the non-Japanese here talk about "the Edogawa river" - since Kawa already means "river", they say in effect "Edo river river". The same would be true for "Shintô Katana", which is a "new sword sword".

[Keith Larman]

No, not incorrectly, but that people use the terms with a different feel to them. It seems to me gendaito has taken on additional meaning as a sword "not from the 'real' times of Japanese sword" and as such aren't considered as highly regardless of the merit of individual blades.

[kusunokimasahige]

So...... if someone would truly like to use a real sword for iaido.... or even tameshigiri

 

(i know everyone of you will get a stomach ache now having said this....)

 

he would be better off with a gendaito or shinsakuto, than any of the rubbish fake swords made by chinese and european smiths these days... (shinken)

 

Or am i wrong here?

 

KM

[David Flynn]

I'm a predominately a Gendai collector. I generaly don't collect anything post war, although I have one sword from 1988. However with my own collecting Jargon, I consider Shinsakuto, to Made by the smiths taught Post war and comming into prominance from the 1970s onwards. I also go on shape and style. One only has to have a shinsakuto in their hands, to know it is a shinsakuto.

Again just my opinion' :D

David