Muramasa Advice

[Surfson]

Despite the fact that my fiancé believes the hype about Muramasa blades being dangerous for their owners, I am considering the purchase of a Muramasa tanto and need some advice.  The blade, which I have not yet seen in person, is a mumei tanto just over 12" long (31.2 cm) and has NBTHK green papers, NTHK papers and a Kanzan Sato sayagaki attributing it to nidai Muramasa.  It appears to have mounts, but I don't know how nice they are. My problem is I am a bit foggy as to what a good price on a Muramasa tanto is.  I have seen historical values over a wide range, but am a bit at a loss as to what the market is right now.  I would appreciate any and all opinions about this, and apologize that I don't have any decent photos to post.   I will say that the photocopy that I have seen indicates that it has the classic nidai nakago shape, two holes, futatsu-bi on both sides and a symmetrical hamon on both sides.  Thanks in advance for any advice or suggestions that you may have.  Cheers, Bob

[Katsujinken]

In any case I would ask for a guarantee that the green papers will upgrade to current NBTHK papers within 1 year of purchase. With the sayagaki you probably don't need to worry, but if you ever want to sell it I think current papers will help. Will leave price to others...

[Shugyosha]

Looks like Aoi will have one for sale presently...

 

https://www.aoijapan.com/appraisal-quiz-445

[Surfson]

It's good advice Michael, but certainly won't happen, due to the circumstances of the situation.  I have to see the Miyano papers, but if they also attribute to Muramasa II, along with the Kanzan sayagaki, I will have a decent comfort level.  No doubt that the Tokubetsu Kicho papers can't be relied upon on their own.

[Surfson]

Good catch John, as it wouldn't surprise me if your kantei of that piece is correct.  If so, that will help with retail price, though I'm not totally sure how a tanto and wakizashi stack up price wise.  I believe that I recall threads on that subject.... Hopefully he will post the answer and the sword soon.  

[ROKUJURO]

Robert,

strictly spoken, the MURAMASA TANTO is a WAKIZASHI. In the past it was sometimes called SUN-NOBI TANTO and of course used like a TANTO, probably as DAISHO together with a TACHI. 

[Shugyosha]

Hi Robert,

 

Sorry, I somehow missed that it was a wakizashi...

 

In other news, there's a Sengo Masashige here:

 

http://nihonto.com/1.4.15.html

 

And Aoi sold one within the last six months (I think):

 

https://www.aoijapan.net/tanto-masashige-saku-sengo/

 

I'm not sure if the logic stacks up, but to my thinking a Muramasa tanto should go for more than one by his student so the Masashige prices might start to point you towards a low-end price for the Muramasa. But I might be talking crap...

 

Best,

John

[Derek]

Robert,

I currently have two Muramasa nihonto, and owned a few others, and can assure you that I have never had curse-like occurrences. My wife actually likes my Muramasa tanto most of my entire collection. ????

I have bought and sold a few, and have sale data for about 10 lately, which I will pm you.

[Ray Singer]

https://www.aoijapan.net/?s=Muramasa&x=0&y=0

[Surfson]

Hi All.  

Jean, yes, it is a  bit long but I did read that his tanto ran a little long.  It is also fairly slender, so I'm sure it feels like and has the heft of a tanto; although I am not disagreeing with you about the strict definition.

John, yes, I saw that Sengo Masashige on Nihonto.com, I think when he had his recent sale, but hadn't seen the one sold by Aoiarts - thanks for the link.

Derek, please, please do send me your records on prices, this is exactly what I was looking for.  My regular email is surfson@rcn.com

Ray, thanks for the link to past Aoi sales.  I had already gone through them and found prices from $4K-$38K!  Any other information or advice you might have, please email or post it.  

Cheers, Bob 

[Ray Singer]

FWIW, this really wonderful nidai Muramasa sold for $3,500. It was owned by a good friend, but I made the unfortunate decision to pass in order to make another purchase at that same time. Note that the kizu mentioned was extremely minimal, and this had one of the best jigane I have seen in a Muramasa.

 

http://www.nihonto.us/MURAMASA%20TANTO%20-%20NIDAI.htm

[Surfson]

That seems like a steal Ray.  Are you saying that Andy sold it that cheaply or was it your friend who did so?  

[Ray Singer]

That was the price on nihonto.us.

[seattle1]

Hello Robert:

 We get way too far off the path of reason when we worry about a tanto being somewhat more than 30 cm as if it then morphs into something entirely different from, say, one slightly less, and is therefore not a tanto in the functional sense. All those great historical blades with intended functions as tanto, wakizashi or daito got squeezed into " new clothes" only because of the adoption of the metric system in Japan and the legal requirement to add a length determined name along with a metric number on the torokusho. The obvious convenient break points at 30 cm and 60 cm.

 As for concern about Tokubetsu Kicho papers, what probability do you think there is that one you might encounter is wrong? I would guess the likelihood is exceedingly small. The ex ante estimate that seems to abound is a good revenue generator though!

 Arnold F.

[Gakusee]

Given that the blade also has NTHK papers and a sayagaki (check sayagaki Mei and handwriting to ensure you believe genuine) I would not worry too much about authenticity. But most of all check the blade yourself.

There is a lot written about Muramasa - his itame nagare kitae, the konie Hamon without too many hataraki etc etc you should be able to check his trademark features to your tanto and judge if you believe genuine.

 

Pricewise, I have been monitoring Muramasa tanto and katana prices for the last ten years. Indeed Aoi Art is the one which has traded most tanto among the popular merchants and you should be able to find a lot of historic prices on aoijapan.net. Tanto range usually between $15k to $35k depending on state, mei, paper, koshirae.

[Surfson]

Thanks Arnold and Michael.  Arnold, I agree with you about the arbitrariness of the measuring breakpoints.  This blade speaks to me as a tanto.  As to the Tokubetsu Kicho papers, it's interesting that you should mention the bad ones.  I have seen several cases where blades with green papers failed to paper at the NTHK NPO.  The green papers for this one are the ones I trust the least.  Michael, thanks for the price range and the advice - both are very helpful.  I have several blades with Kanzan Sato sayagaki and will check carefully once I see the shirasaya.  Hopefully Derek will share his experiences and I will have all the information I will need.  Cheers, Bob

[Derek]

Sorry my friend, I am away from my computer until tomorrow evening. So I am unable to send you specifics until then.

However, Michael is spot on according to what I have sources for. (And a true gentleman, as well!)

i will buy as many as you have at $3500 ????

[Surfson]

Thanks Derek.  No hurry, just send along what you have when you have a moment.  Cheers, Bob

[Darcy]

About green papers, once upon a time there were many green papers and most were fine but enough were bad that they were withdrawn entirely as a status. So that should tell you something.

 

People were encouraged to exchange their old green papers for new Hozon and Tokubetsu Hozon papers. Many people did that to show their blades were above worry. 

 

Bad papers of course could never be exchanged. So, over time, the percentage of bad papers within the overall pool of existing green papers can only increase. Now it is quite a large percentage, I would say in fact the majority. 

 

Last year I believe it was, maybe the year before, that the NBTHK finally disavowed what was left. This means so few were coming in any more and/or that so few that did come in passed, that they could conservatively make such a statement on the remaining body.

 

That is not to say that all out there are no good: some surely are. But basically the status is no longer recognized at all and that should be the attitude one should take when regarding them.

 

For Muramasa, the state of the signature is the most important factor. A couple years ago even an unsigned katana sold at Aoi for something like 6 million yen. 15 years ago I saw a beautiful Tokubetsu Hozon tanto for $28k at Ginza Choshuya which seemed expensive to me then because I was thinking like most people, that the paper implied the price. That blade most likely passed Juyo since then and at the Dai Token Ichi you can see a few every year, usually not so good condition, and the prices are in the 2.8 to 4.5 million yen range. Condition wise, these are not good condition blades.

 

Those that tend to show up online have no signature often, or one character obliterated, or so polished down the horimono are damaged considerably, or the hamon is made very thin by polish, or have green papers, or some combination of all of these. 

 

Sometimes a mumei Muramasa has passed Juyo but this won't happen again. This is not to say they are no good, but it is to say that there is a night and day difference in value between a mumei one and a signed one. The mumei ones nobody will ever know if they are Masazane or Masashige or were indeed disguised Muramasa. Either way, the most important element is now lost. 

 

Signed healthy ones are not often on the market or available at any price. As one can imagine, they are very popular inside Japan and outside of Japan, being one of two names that even non-sword collectors can become very familiar with. I knew who Muramasa was when I was 18 and I didn't get my first sword for more than a decade after that so I knew him well before I even knew who Masamune was. 

 

I know of one fellow (hello) who had a fine Muramasa katana that has since passed Tokubetsu Juyo and is the only one. Past that I don't know anyone who has owned a Muramasa katana and I have seen only one. I have had more than ten Masamune katana in my hands and many of those famous. But I never touched a Muramasa katana. 

 

Tracking price and then establishing price as a fact based on what one sees on the internet is covered very well in a good parable: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blind_men_and_an_elephant

 

There are a lot of currents under the surface so you can't mistake what is on the surface for what is everything.

 

This katana that I saw sold at the DTI for 11 million a few years ago when the yen was more like 90 to the dollar and went pretty fast. It hasn't resurfaced. 

 

If anyone has a non-fake one to sell, you have my email address.

[Gakusee]

Let us elaborate some more on one of my favourite topics, Muramasa.

 

While I agree with Darcy that the mei/ signature is very important on a blade (in this case, Muramasa), also the condition of the hamon and jihada is very important. On this board we have discussed several Muramasa katana, including mine, and there are always observations like "oh, but the Mei has been removed", or "the Hamon is too close to the edge" (even though this is one of his trademark traits) or "what do you actually see" (when the polish was substandard so of course you could not see much) etc. One needs to look at a blade holistically, see through the bad polish, assess everything and one element might be a bit impacted but another - all there, and then take a decision on the sum of the parts.

 

The 6m yen katana Darcy mentions - I still regret not being able to buy it. It was very healthy, larger than Muramasa's usual, and beautiful. It did not matter to me that it was mumei and only Hozon papered - I could see the signature style, to me it was clear it was not Masashige / Masazane (not overly Nie laden like their blades) and the Hozon paper was clear it was Muramasa and not "Muramasa den" or "den Muramasa". That auction on Aoi Japan left a lot of question marks (more in private mode, if necessary).

Juyo, signed Muramasa katana , which I have seen, have been in the 10-12m yen range usually (including the two - three ones at the DTI).

As a digression, people considering swords at that price levels need to be careful about one TH papered signed Muramasa katana which has been circulating for the last 5 years in Japan among dealers. It is beautiful but I do not think the signature is shodai/Nidai and the fact that it has not passed Juyo yet for the last 5 years makes me a bit suspicious. Regardless, at the DTI it was 10m or 11m (having been at another dealer at 12m before the DTI) and I think it must have traded at 8-9m, below the DTI price. There have been enough posts here about "the value increase implicit promise" inherent in a blade potentially going to Juyo, but when it is already priced like Juyo, do not be tantalised by that chimera.

Darcy - not sure if you are talking about that one or the one below.

There was another, this time Juyo katana - signed and I did not have any doubts about the signature being more likely Nidai (who I am to contest a Juyo paper anyway but the TH papered one above in my eyes did not have a shodai/Nidai signature yet was priced like one). It was at the DTI, did not sell there but it sold shortly (within a month) after the DTI and that one has not surfaced indeed.

 

The question was about tanto and wakizashi length prices. The ten or so I have seen have ranged as I said, mostly between $15k and $35k for authenticated tanto. Of course, I have seen $5m Muramasa tanto at the Dai ToKen Ichi but these were overpriced (always happens at the DTI) - and one of them indeed had the second character altered. When I see Muramasa tanto below $20k, I think this is usually a good deal, especially if it is signed and has a Hozon paper. There have been a few around the $10-13k price range but they were "Muramasa den" or later generation (fourth onwards).

[Blagoy]

The only one Muramasa katana with signature that i see in internet is this one.

http://www.samuraisword.com/nihontodisplay/JUYO/Muramasa/

Very beautiful and healthy juyo with nice Edo koshirae and Koto tsuba. In the description is written that the tsuba it's from same period as the blade. What you thing about this tsuba, it is original to the blade? 

Michael, i will love to see your Muramasa.

[Hoshi]

the website states "the sword is not available for purchase as it sold to a client before posting" 

Goes to show you just how much demand there is for such treasures... 

[Gakusee]

Guys

The Muramasa which Blagoy posted was sold around 7-8 years ago, so you are a bit late to that party. In any case, if you are interested in that blade (wonderful as it is and with excellent koshirae), you should prepare $200k. That puts most of us out of consideration but perhaps we can club together )? The other katana we were discussing traded 2-3 years ago

[Shugyosha]

That puts most of us out of consideration but perhaps we can club together )?

 

 

It's an interesting idea - do you think there's a market for owning antiques on a "time share" basis?

[Pete Klein]

So -- five guys buy a $200,000 sword because they cannot afford to buy it themselves.  What happens if the sword is stolen or damaged?  How will the one guy responsible pay the others their loss when he couldn't afford it in the first place?  This is not a good idea.  If you want to look at expensive swords and you just cannot afford to buy them then just go to a sword show, join a sword organization with meetings you can attend or just go to the DTI every few years.  Any of these alternatives cost much less than a percent share in something you can't afford in the first place and in all honesty you'll probably get tired of quickly.  Then what?  Who buys your share?  Da-dum, da-dum, da-dum...

[Jussi Ekholm]

Here is a Muramasa tanto currently for sale: http://toyuukai.com/2016/12/%e6%9d%91%e6%ad%a3/

 

Not my taste and for that kind of investment I would have lots and lots of other blades I would rather go for if I would ever had that kind of cash for a sword. Lot just comes down to taste in the higher end market, so many amazing swords can be had around the 5M Yen range.

[Shugyosha]

So -- five guys buy a $200,000 sword because they cannot afford to buy it themselves.  What happens if the sword is stolen or damaged?  How will the one guy responsible pay the others their loss when he couldn't afford it in the first place?  This is not a good idea.  If you want to look at expensive swords and you just cannot afford to buy them then just go to a sword show, join a sword organization with meetings you can attend or just go to the DTI every few years.  Any of these alternatives cost much less than a percent share in something you can't afford in the first place and in all honesty you'll probably get tired of quickly.  Then what?  Who buys your share?  Da-dum, da-dum, da-dum...

Sorry, forgot to add the relevant smiley to indicate that I wasn't being serious.

[Surfson]

Thanks for all of your input guys.   I will keep you posted!

[mywei]

https://www.aoijapan.com/wakizashimuramasa

 

4.5M￥

[Surfson]

Thanks Matt!  It is very interesting to me that in the Hozon papers they note that the Mura was changed to Hiro.  I thought that the NBTHK was very rigid about papering gimei blades, which this clearly is!  Does anybody know what exceptions they use to modify their typical rigidity?  Cheers, Bob