My Suggestions For Nbthk

[Derek]

In the interest of not hijacking another thread.....

 

My suggestions for the NBTHK..... (Not that I am particularly important)  

I doubt anyone over there really cares what I think.  But, on the slim chance they do care, or see this, here it goes.....

 

In my opinion, the NBTHK does a remarkable job, given what is asked of them; unfortunately, I think they are playing catch-up.

 

This is their stated mission:

“Its purposes include preservation through study and research of Japanese Art Swords and related items, educating students and enthusiasts of Japanese swords and sword fittings, and support of related specialist craftsman in sword restoration and conservation trades.”

 

As the gold-standard of nihonto authentication, we expect them to be accurate, knowledgeable, transparent, and consistent.  At the same time, the shinsa audience has become more global, and I think they have done a less than stellar job of keeping up with that change.

 

As a collector, what do I want?  I want to know if a paper is counterfeit.  I want to the reason for a fail.  I want detail!

I ask for three changes:

1. Keep an open, searchable database.  List all passed swords by certificate number.  (#201703/123456  Katana signed Osafune Kanemitsu 68.3 cm  Hozon)
2. A simple sentence on why an item fails.
3. A simple sentence on why an item passed. 

 

The database would allow the study of nihonto to flourish.  One could verify that a sword for sale or purchase matched the official papers.  Also, the sheer volume of statistical data would aid in the future knowledge and understanding of nihonto.  If I buy a sword with NBTHK paper, my first thought is if it is real?  Is it old paper that could be forged or unreliable?  Is it new paper that has been forged?  If it is Juyo, I can look up the zufu.  If not, I depend on the paper.  Why not a searchable database for all swords?  I honestly think the time and money invested would elevate the NBTHK to a new height of prestige and relevance. 

Any reason for failing shinsa should be noted.  It seems almost insulting to not include even one sentence.  Any detail given provides more knowledge.  Really, how difficult would it be to write, “Sword is in good condition, but majority of judges thought the signature is probably gimei."  You could then at least know if it is a problem with condition, mei, or whatever. 

A quick detail on pass should be noted.  Again, think of the educational value!  “This mumei katana could be O Shizu, but is not quite good enough, so majority goes with Naoe Shizu.”  “These menuki are definitely Goto, but no consensus on which generation.”  This tsuba looks like one we always say owari to, so owari.”

Finally, as a bonus, why not offer additional services for a fee?  Like $30 usd for an origami translation on official letterhead?

 

 

Please feel free to attack my suggestions below, or add your own! 

[Ken-Hawaii]

Not that your thoughts are bad, Derek, but it's just not going to happen. All shinsa organizations know that their results are totally subjective, & have no desire to make the reasons/rationale for those results public, over & above what their origami already show.

 

There's also the "mystery" of how a small group of men can provide authentication at all, especially when some blades are worth millions.

 

Ken

 

[Derek]

I'm not saying that I expect these things, only expressing my thoughts.

How do you explain zufu then? Why not a short version for all passes?

How do you explain nthk explaining fails?

I think that if you are stating your mission as "education of students and enthusiasts" these are reasonable suggestions...

 

Again, only a polite discussion between fans of the hobby. I'm sure we all expect the status quo

[Bugyotsuji]

Derek. Good ideas. One way or another your appeal should surely reach their ears.

[Alex A]

Even if it does reach their ears (and im sure it has), i doubt nothing will change.

 

The answer is simple, they dont need to.

[paulb]

Derek

I think your ideas are perfectly sensble and would hope to see some move in this direction over time. Something we need to consider is the NBTHK's motivation to do anything for the non-Japanese sword community. In the past They made great efforts to produce an English version of the monthly magazine. This cost them a great deal and eventually was unsustainable. Put simply there were not enough members outside of Japan to justify the cost.

Today they are as you say held as the gold standard (or at least the commercially most accepted) attribution service. If they are going to introduce facilities as you describe  there would be costs associated with it. The only way they can gauge the need for such a service is by looking at the membership.

A lot of people here use the NBTHK shinsa services and comment on them and suggest ways they might improve. But how many are actually members of the NBTHK and support their activity through their annual membership fees? I dont know the answer but my guess based on the membership in the UK and other parts of Europe is not very many.

As with any organisation I believe the best way to make things change is for the membership to suggest how they would like it to improve. Being a member demonstrates commitment to the development of the organisation. It also gives the NBTHK an idea of the size of the overseas interest.

If you look at the results for the monthly kantei question in the NBTHK magazine there are generally 3 or 4 full pages of Japanese participants (I am guessing mid hundreds in number) getting the correct answer. Amongst this list there are generally between 4 and 10 non Japanese. If this were used as a gauge of interest why would anyone invest to serve such a minor part of their potential market.

If we really want to see changes within the NBTHK I would suggest a good first step would be top increase the overseas membership and demonstrate the potential value of serving this part of their market better.

Sorry I didn't mean this to sound like a recruitment drive for the NBTHK (but I guess it is) but I do think increasing membership outside of Japan would be a good first step to making the changes you have asked for happen.

Best Regards

Paul

[Surfson]

These are interesting ideas.  Building a database with associated website for lookup would be worthwhile, though I suspect that it would best be done if the photos/oshigata were associated with the entries, a task that involves time,expertise and expense. It also would probably only be forward looking and I imagine that going back to do it retrospectively would be challenging.  By that I mean that they could use only digital photography from here on (and may already have been doing this for some time) and enter all swords undergoing shinsa into the new database.  I would be surprised if they would tackle going back into their archives and create digital entries for the purpose of making them publicly available. If many more fake papers appear in the market and the NBTHK doesn't do something, then companies like PSA/DNA might arise with the sole purpose of verifying the papers! 

[Jussi Ekholm]

I like your ideas Derek and I think they would be helpful to many if they would be implimented but...

 

I have to second the above post by Paul. I think it is far too common that people think NBTHK and NTHK and others just as organizations issuing attribution papers. However they are great organizations that are in my opinion well worth joining as they indeed are doing as their mission statement says. In my opinion NBTHK European Branch is doing amazing meetings and I greatly enjoy reading the meeting reports wishing that I could travel to each and every single one of those. In every TB you can see reports about various meetings held in Japan. You can read here at NMB the meeting report Piers wrote about local NBTHK meeting with amazing lineup of swords to study.

 

The overseas number of NBTHK members is unfortunately very small. I was actually bit shocked when I found that out. So it is very important that we keep the numbers and increase them. European and American branches are doing great stuff in organizing various events and I keep scratching my head why the membership numbers are not going up. Well swords are not that hot among the common folks and it will always be a very niche hobby. So it will be very difficult to attract new interested folks to this hobby.

 

In overall I think that English language is still very minor to NBTHK. Like Paul said above it is not cost effective for them to provide much in English language. However here again NBTHK oversea branches have made very nice thing as Markus is doing spectacular job with partial TB translations.

 

I think the announcement about fake papers might have made people bit too nervous. Of course I do not have the slightest idea about the severeness of the issue but I thought it wasn't / isn't a too big deal (of course I can be totally wrong).

 

Also while it is no official shinsa panel the opinion of experienced members of my local NBTHK branch means very much to me. It is always amazing to hear their thoughts on various items at meetings.

[b.hennick]

NBTHK membership is expensive in the USA - $250  Compare with JSSUS $45, Northen California Japanese Sword Club $60 J.C.C.C. Token Kai $20 (Japanese Canadian Cultural Centre Sword Club Toronto Ontario)

[Jean]

NBTHK subscription fee in Europe is 220€, expensive.

[John A Stuart]

The Japanese organisations are a really closed door institution, with many circles within circles. As outsiders we are given a window seat, but, as an institutional body no seat at the table. I remember meetings where we had small contingents relative to native members. We have no lobby to change anything and rely on invitation and must be thankful for that. John

[paulb]

I agree it is expensive and cost has increased dramatically this year. I would argue you do get good value for money with 12 magazines a year with partial translation (all of the kantei examples) which offer an exceptional reference base. For those submitting blades for shinsa and visiting the museum there are also preferential rates (I assume that hasn't changed recently)

I also think the mindset needs to be slightly different rather than what we get out of it think about what we are contributing too. We are helping to maintain an exceptional resource and collection of artefacts as well as a knowledge base and attribution facility. 

Everyone here is interested in the subject, otherwise they wouldn't be here contributing to the leading organisation in the field which is not a commercial organisation but a self funding charity does not seem unreasonable, especially if we want things to change in our favour.

[Mark]

I think your suggestions make sense. Not so sure about #3 if an item passes that sort of speaks for itself, hard to get them to explain why, even the NTHK(s) does not do that on their points sheet. But i agree with Paul also. Are you a member of the NBTHK?  If so great, if not I recommend joining. Much better chance of addressing concerns as a member. A little while back the NBTHK-AB had a meeting for all members where concerns could be expressed to the Directors and they would take that back to the NBTHK in Japan. I recall the Directors where very interested in issues brought up and made notes. It seems to be in the best interest of the NBTHK to be open to members. 

[Derek]

This has already been an interesting conversation to me; the differing viewpoints expressed with thought and courtesy has been refreshing.

 

Number one, I have only been collecting nihonto for 14 years, which is a very short time.  I do have a respectable collection though.

 

I really do appreciate the NBTHK, their origami, their history, and what they do for collectors.  I have submitted many items for shinsa, and really only disappointed by results one time.  My post was not really aimed at questioning or criticizing, but really an open discussion for ideas.  I am not a member of the NBTHK, but there have been compelling reasons posted here for doing so, and may reconsider.

 

 

 

“One way or another your appeal should surely reach their ears.”

I have already been messaged by two members of the NBTHK who would like to fwd this to the organization. 

 

“Even if it does reach their ears (and im sure it has), i doubt nothing will change.  The answer is simple, they dont need to.”

Change is growth.  Is the NBTHK so great that it can’t be replaced, if they don’t change?

 

“A lot of people here use the NBTHK shinsa services and comment on them and suggest ways they might improve. But how many are actually members of the NBTHK and support their activity through their annual membership fees?” …. “Sorry I didn't mean this to sound like a recruitment drive for the NBTHK (but I guess it is) but I do think increasing membership outside of Japan would be a good first step to making the changes you have asked for happen.”

Paul, I really admire you.  You make a very clear and concise argument.  I am not a member, so why do I care?  Maybe I should, and you make a good case to do so.

 

“Building a database with associated website for lookup would be worthwhile, though I suspect that it would best be done if the photos/oshigata were associated with the entries, a task that involves time,expertise and expense.”

Actually, I was thinking of a very simple excel format listing certificate number, attribution, length, and certificate type.  I don’t think that this would be a huge investment in time or money?

 

“The overseas number of NBTHK members is unfortunately very small. I was actually bit shocked when I found that out.”

This is another good point that I had not considered.

 

“Well swords are not that hot among the common folks and it will always be a very niche hobby. So it will be very difficult to attract new interested folks to this hobby.”

And I just suggested three simple points to help facilitate this.

 

“I think the announcement about fake papers might have made people bit too nervous. Of course I do not have the slightest idea about the severeness of the issue but I thought it wasn't / isn't a too big deal”

You may be right, but it seems to be a continuing subject.  I think the legitimacy of an organization’s authentication papers are paramount to reputation.  This would surely be a step in that direction?

 

“NBTHK membership is expensive in the USA - $250  Compare with JSSUS $45”

I guess that is why I think of the NBTHK as primarily as issuing papers.

 

 

“As outsiders we are given a window seat, but, as an institutional body no seat at the table. I remember meetings where we had small contingents relative to native members. We have no lobby to change anything and rely on invitation and must be thankful for that.”

 

I do not accept that we should just be happy to be outside viewers.  If that is the future, then I respectfully withdraw my interest in the NBTHK.  This is also part of the reason I started this thread.  To sit in quiet acceptance with the status quo is to passively encourage it.  Why is it not my right to express my dissatisfaction?

 

“Everyone here is interested in the subject, otherwise they wouldn't be here contributing to the leading organisation in the field which is not a commercial organisation but a self funding charity does not seem unreasonable, especially if we want things to change in our favour. “

 

Again, well said, and much to think about.

 

“Not so sure about #3 if an item passes that sort of speaks for itself, hard to get them to explain why, even the NTHK(s) does not do that on their points sheet.”

 

But why can’t they add it?  Because no one does?  Again, why not be cutting edge?  They will write several paragraphs for Juyo Zufu, why not a sentence on every pass?  Just think of the educational value.

 

 

Again, please don’t see my posts as blind criticism.  My point is for an open conversation on what would be beneficial in the eyes of collectors.

This is their stated mission:

“Its purposes include preservation through study and research of Japanese Art Swords and related items, educating students and enthusiasts of Japanese swords and sword fittings, and support of related specialist craftsman in sword restoration and conservation trades.”

[Vermithrax16]

NBTHK membership is expensive in the USA - $250  Compare with JSSUS $45, Northen California Japanese Sword Club $60 J.C.C.C. Token Kai $20 (Japanese Canadian Cultural Centre Sword Club Toronto Ontario)

Is that per year or monthly?

 

Either way, it's not onerous. 

[Mark]

membership dues are paid annually.

 

I think membership is important.  If there are a lot of foreign members i think the NBTHK would take note and be more likely to try and accommodate them. As it is why would they change? If 99% of members are Japanese why worry about other languages, why worry about writing info on shinsa results as members can just ask when they pick up their items? They are set up to deal with people in Japan, that is why you need an agent, you can't submit to them by mail. If we want them to change and cater to those in other countries i think they need to see us as a sizable block. If even 25% of members were foreign i think they would take note

[Derek]

That is a good point, Mark.  I wonder if 99% is really what we are looking at.  If so, then it does add to the complexity.

[Vermithrax16]

membership dues are paid annually.

 

I think membership is important.  If there are a lot of foreign members i think the NBTHK would take note and be more likely to try and accommodate them. As it is why would they change? If 99% of members are Japanese why worry about other languages, why worry about writing info on shinsa results as members can just ask when they pick up their items? They are set up to deal with people in Japan, that is why you need an agent, you can't submit to them by mail. If we want them to change and cater to those in other countries i think they need to see us as a sizable block. If even 25% of members were foreign i think they would take note

I see folks here buying swords for 20k plus, I think $250 a year is doable. I agree, get a big subscriber base here in USA and they will be more receptive.

[Derek]

"get a big subscriber base here in USA and they will be more receptive."

 

 

 

I guess it is a simple question, but I am torn.  I feel uneasy joining an organization, in hopes that it may possibly consider my opinion at a later date?

 

Maybe I feel like they should want me to join, and show a little proactivity.....

 

Many of you have made it clear that they will not change, as there is no reason to, and i am not their audience.  But isn't it possible that the NBTHK may want more of a global footprint?  Perhaps showing an interest, and making my opinion known may bear fruit?  Is it necessary to expect change, or is it okay to express ones thoughts?  Am I not allowed an opinion if I am not a member?  I am still a customer, and potential member.....

 

In a way, I feel as though this forum belongs to all of us as a collective.  Perhaps our collective voice here is a chance to wield more influence than a single voice?

 

I guess, in the end, I don't expect change from anything i say here.  But i do think that it is important that we feel free to express our thoughts.

[Vermithrax16]

"get a big subscriber base here in USA and they will be more receptive."

 

 

 

I guess it is a simple question, but I am torn.  I feel uneasy joining an organization, in hopes that it may possibly consider my opinion at a later date?

 

Maybe I feel like they should want me to join, and show a little proactivity.....

 

Many of you have made it clear that they will not change, as there is no reason to, and i am not their audience.  But isn't it possible that the NBTHK may want more of a global footprint?  Perhaps showing an interest, and making my opinion known may bear fruit?  Is it necessary to expect change, or is it okay to express ones thoughts?  Am I not allowed an opinion if I am not a member?  I am still a customer, and potential member.....

 

In a way, I feel as though this forum belongs to all of us as a collective.  Perhaps our collective voice here is a chance to wield more influence than a single voice?

 

I guess, in the end, I don't expect change from anything i say here.  But i do think that it is important that we feel free to express our thoughts.

I will subscribe tomorrow, if it's cultural then it's a long slog but in the end demand talks and other stuff walks....

 

I am thinking that this has not been done before speaks to a larger issue that maybe is not being discussed?

[Derek]

"but in the end demand talks and other stuff walks...."

 

 

Great point, Jeremiah.  I just joined the JSSUS now, which I should have done long ago.

I am still torn regarding the NBTHK.

[Mark]

for those in the US here is a link if interested http://www.nbthk-ab.org/

[Toryu2020]

There did not used to be an American branch, there did not used to be a European branch. They do hear us and they do change albeit slowly. If dramatic numbers of overseas members join, then you will see dramatic change. The material is there for all members, yes there are translations but with very little effort you can learn to read and understand the sword descriptions. With that understanding comes greater affinity to your subject matter and other collectors with the same interest. Join us!

 

Another thought,

Robert Haynes did not wait for the Japanese to write the book on kodogu, he wrote and published it himself and now it is THE book. There once was a sword database, created and maintained by one man, now it is supported by the JSSUS and is a resource for all. Perhaps as a member you could work with others to create a fledgling database, swords in the US and Europe. If it grows and proves useful maybe the hombu will take up the model or even adopt and expand it with their own info. Be the change you want to see!

 

I think it is a great idea and I would work with you - collectors with passion are what is needed and there is lots we could do as a branch

stepping of my soapbox...

-t

[paulb]

Derek

Can I suggest you try it and join the NBTHK, Yes it will cost $250 but as said before I think it good value and you would be contributing to something worthwhile. Years ago I went through the same thought process but was eventually persuaded to join by my teacher. I have not regretted it.

If you try and don't feel it worthwhile then you don't have to renew your membership. It will have cost you $250, you will have 12 copies of an excellent reference publication and access to all the other benefits. All for the cost of an average fitting on Ebay (sorry that is another hot subject for another thread!!).

[DirkO]

Also, the reason the NBTHK fee is as high as it is, is because they fund various projects like translations of the Token Bujitsu, the Tosogu books from Shigeo, ... So it's not like like you're just throwing your money away, it's used to service the nihonto community and their membership. And as someone else put it - this is not a cheap hobby, so if you have several 1000's worth of nihonto or kodogu, it puts the fee a little bit in perspective.

[Guido]

Actually, I was thinking of a very simple excel format listing certificate number, attribution, length, and certificate type.  I don’t think that this would be a huge investment in time or money?

 

As of March 2011, there were

 

79,999 hozon tōken

21,599 tokubetsu hozon tōken

10,950 jūyō token

920 tokubetsu jūyō token

 

I think the NBTHK would be very grateful if you volunteer to put the data of all those 113,468 swords in an excel sheet!  

[Derek]

I was thinking more for future shinsa, but whatever.

 

Sorry to offer an idea for customer service and educational improvement. I didn't mean to offend anyone with my audacious and insulting question.....

[Derek]

113,468 x $300 fee = $39,713,800 (not including juyo)

Give me 3% and I will create that database with a smile.

[Jussi Ekholm]

I think it is a good thing that you voice your opinion Derek.

 

As we talked about numbers I think the c.1% that Mark suggested earlier might be close to my estimate of EB & AB memberships compared to the whole NBTHK. I am not sure about the actual membership numbers in Japan currently. Of course I am rooting for dramatic increase in EB & AB memberships but in realistical view I think it is a slow process. It will take a long time to increase the membership numbers in slow steps, as like I said earlier interested folks are quite hard to come by. This is quite small hobby.

 

Yes the membership fee is high for this year but there are nice things planned by European branch in 2018 & 2019, and a higher fee will help with those. The membership fee is fluctuating depending on the situation on hand.

 

Joining and being a member should be an activity that you enjoy doing. Nothing good comes out from forced things. Personally I am not sure if "recruiting" is right way to approach folks in a hobby like sword collecting. I've tried my share on trying to spark interest about swords to Finnish martial arts crowd over the years but it is futile if people don't have the passion for the hobby. I feel that those who want will eventually join in sword groups. Creating interest is great but you cannot force people to join in (or well you can but it is not a long term solution usually...).

 

I am liking that database idea you have, and I can give my very small contribution to it too if you start building it up.

 

 

[Brian]

I see folks here buying swords for 20k plus, I think $250 a year is doable. I agree, get a big subscriber base here in USA and they will be more receptive.

 

12 Publications a year, plus events and member benefits. Nice. $250 doesn't sound too expensive.

NBM forum. DAILY activity. Probably more info mixed with all the off topic stuff that is accessible to an English speaker than you can find anywhere worldwide.

More mei examples, and resources than anywhere worldwide. More members than any society. More international appeal and reach than any society.

More access to sales and selling. Instant answers in many cases. Best translations anywhere in the world based on time and cost (nil)

And yet there are many months we don't bring in even $50.

Still think people are willing to pay for education?

1% of collectors carrying the rest as always.