Funny tanto on ebay Genuine????

[hybridfiat]

Ive seen this on ebay and Im not convinced. The carving and kanji to my untrained eye looks sus.

Am I right or just paranoid?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... otohosting

[Brian]

It is right..you are paranoid :D . Not the best done, but correct imho.

 

Brian

[Jacques]

  Brian said:

It is right..you are paranoid :D . Not the best done, but correct imho.

 

Brian

 

 

Just gimei

[Brian]

Aren't they all?

 

Brian

 

PS - Gimei probably, but still genuine horimono and nothing fake about that. Just not the best work, it fits in with the style of many of the later carvings.

[Guest reinhard]

The seller obviously doesn't know what he is talking about. The "buddhist prayer" of the "harimono" can be interpreted (from top to bottom):

 

A strange bonji-like character and afterwards: yumiya Hachiman daijin

 

Hachiman is THE shintoist protecting deity of all warriors and confusing him with Buddhism shows a lack of basic knowledge. The "harimono" looks poor, unbalanced and to a certain degree not of Japanese origin, though it might be a rustic variation. You would not expect a horimono like this on a blade by "San-Ju" (probably Sanjo) Yoshinori. My advice: keep your hands off.

 

reinhard

[e-Raser]

Good Morning.

 

The precise divisions between Shinto and Buddhism can be a little tricky.

 

The links between Shinto and Buddhism were "altered" in the Meiji period.

 

Before this division Shinto and Buddhism mingled many of their component parts.

Let's take Hachiman for example:

Hachiman or as some sources refer - Yawata no Kami is the Shinto God of War and divine protector of Japanese people.

The God of eight banners was also worshipped as an agricultural Kami.

However with the arrival of Buddhism Hachiman becomes associated with the bodhisatva Daibosatsu.

 

So Hachiman can be both Shinto and Buddhist......

 

Confusing!!

 

Anyway this Buddhist goes into Burger King and asks the kid behind the counter to make him one with everything.

 

Best regards to all

Malcolm

[Nobody]

  e-Raser said:

The precise divisions between Shinto and Buddhism can be a little tricky.

 

The links between Shinto and Buddhism were "altered" in the Meiji period.

 

Before this division Shinto and Buddhism mingled many of their component parts.

Yes, that is right. That is called as Shinbutsu Shugo (神ä»ç¿’åˆ) or Shinbutsu Konko (神ä»æ··æ·†).

 

FYI;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shinbutsu_sh%C5%ABg%C5%8D

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hachiman

[e-Raser]

Thank You Moriyama san.

 

http://eos.kokugakuin.ac.jp/modules/xwords/

 

is also a good source of information.

 

Malcolm

[Guest reinhard]

I am aware of these difficulties. What I was trying to say is: The buddhist invocation of Hachiman in a horimono would be: "Namu Hachiman Dai Bosatsu", which is very common on many swords.

The Kanji used for Jin (or Kami) in "Daijin" belongs to Shintoism. As in "Dai Jin Gu" (grand Ise shrine).

Talking of Meiji-times: This brings me back to the horimono on the sword in question. It is obviously of later manufacture and of very poor quality. Either it was applied by a less skillful carver in order to hide flaws or even later for other reasons. Assumed this sword is supposed to be by Sanjo YOSHINORI, the horimono doesn't fit the criteria of being original with the blade at all.

 

reinhard

[Guest reinhard]

  e-Raser said:

However with the arrival of Buddhism Hachiman becomes associated with the bodhisatva Daibosatsu.

Malcolm

 

Bosatsu IS the equivalent of Bodhisatva. Dai just meaning "great". What are you talking about?

 

reinhard

 

P.S.: What about name policy on this forum?

[Guest Simon Rowson]

Religious debates to one side, I'm more concerned about the "tamper line" the seller mentions.

 

Which line has been tampered with exactly?

[Brian]

  Quote

P.S.: What about name policy on this forum?

 

Malcolm did sign his name, but made the text black. Perhaps you are using a black background style and couldn't see it?

 

Brian

[Nobody]

  reinhard said:

  e-Raser said:

However with the arrival of Buddhism Hachiman becomes associated with the bodhisatva Daibosatsu.

Malcolm

 

Bosatsu IS the equivalent of Bodhisatva. Dai just meaning "great". What are you talking about?

I naturally understood that text as follows;

 

"........ Hachiman becomes associated with the (great) bodhisattva (, in other words) Daibosatsu.â€

[e-Raser]

Good Morning All,

 

Allow me to expand upon my original points regarding the Syncretic history of Shinto and Buddhism

 

Here bodhisattva is used as an etymology, much in the same was as one might refer to a saint, Santa Maria del Salvador for example.

 

When we delve into other cultural subtexts, we may easily become victim of the dangers of tautology and semantics, no intent to confuse was intended.

 

The Concise Oxford Dictionary of World Religions contains the following information:

 

Daibosatsu (Jap., ‘great bodhisattva’). The title of Hachiman understood as the incarnation of a great bodhisattva . Daibosatsu is, therefore, any bodhisattva (Jap.,

 

As I said previously: Confusing!!

 

Current Russian Joke: Ivan and Nikolai are drinking Vodka, they drink much into the night, as dawn breaks, Ivan asks of Nikolai “What is 2 plus 2?â€

“4 my friend†replies Nikolai. Whereupon Ivan shoots Nikolai. When questioned upon his action, Ivan says “He knew too much!â€

 

Best regards to all

 

Malcolm

[Guest reinhard]

  e-Raser said:

 

As I said previously: Confusing!!

 

 

There's not much room for confusion as far as this particular horimono is concerned. Hachiman is addressed to as: Okami (the horimono might be continued under the habaki as: Daijin(gu?). The meaning of this is Shintoist in both cases. - For the history of mingling Shintoist deities with Buddhist ones I sure agree with you.

 

reinhard

 

Brian, you're right. Black names completely disappear on black background.

[Guido]

  reinhard said:

... the horimono might be continued under the habaki as: Daijin(gu?).

That was (and still is) my first impression, too.

 

But quite frankly, discussing the fine points of this Horimono is like analyzing the carving technique of the wood elephants sold by vendors on the beaches of Thailand.

[Ford Hallam]

  Quote

discussing the fine points of this Horimono is like analyzing the carving technique of the wood elephants sold by vendors on the beaches of Thailand.

 

:D

 

from my perspective I'd say the carving is a recent addition. The carved areas aren't polished at all really and you can still see the chisel marks. This, so called, horimono is a fake, imnsho It's trying to be something it very clearly is not. Guido may actually have been nearer the mark in terms of the carvers abilities .

 

just chipping ( pardon the pun ) in my observation .

 

regards, Ford

[Jacques]

Hi,

 

Cannot these horimono been carved by a deshi? They need training,

 

Just a thought.

[Guest reinhard]

  Guido Schiller said:

But quite frankly, discussing the fine points of this Horimono is like analyzing the carving technique of the wood elephants sold by vendors on the beaches of Thailand.

 

Definitely true, but this was the question at the very beginning of this thread. Being a "Kulturpessimist", I'm afraid we will have to even lower the entering point in the future in order to keep up and explain quality aspects for those who are really interested.

 

reinhard

[Brian]

I believe the question was whether or not this was a genuine tanto or not. I think most of us agree it is not a fake, just a bad quality horimono. There are plenty out there, and it is interesting to speculate on how it got there. Not everything has to be about whether you would buy it as a top example or not. Sometimes we just wonder about things. I have seen badly cut bonji on a good blade to hide flaws. Sometimes the blade isn't a bad one at all..just the later addition of an amateur carving.

I would hate for us to get into the mindset that only the top stuff is worth collecting and low to mid level stuff is junk not worthy of anyone's interest. That would mean that 95% of the entire art world is wrong, whether it be a painting or a sword.

Right or wrong...discuss

 

Brian